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Received: from SRI-CSL by RUTGERS; Thu 24 Feb 83 12:52:39-EST
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 1983 9:57PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #1
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 24 Feb 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:
	Administrivia - SF-Lovers as Phoenix from the Ashes
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 1983 2156-PST
From: Stuart M. Cracraft <SFL at SRI-CSL>
Subject: SF-Lovers startup message

This is a test digest to see what sort of result we get in the
TCP world of SF-Lovers. If things turn out ok, further digests
with reader contributions will follow. Please expect some
disruption as the network software has not stabilized everywhere.

        Stuart

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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Received: from SRI-CSL by RUTGERS; Sun 27 Feb 83 00:26:15-EST
Date: Thursday, February 24, 1983 5:50PM
From: SFL at SRI-CSL
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #2
To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 25 Feb 1983        Volume 7 : Issue 2

Today's Topics:
                     Special Roger Zelazny Issue
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 83 14:24:41-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!cwruecmp!glassner@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Roger Zelazny

        One of my favourite writers (from whom I have not seen
anything in a while) is Roger Zelazny.  He has a short story (I think
in one of the Alpha anthologies (Bob Silverberg, ed?)) about the
future of the Earth in which a robot attempts to really understand its
former masters (all the people are dead in a nuclear war) by creating
a new person ... very stylish, very clean, and very enjoyable.

        -Andrew
         decvax!cwruecmp!glassner

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 83 21:17:40-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!microsof!gordonl@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Zelazny Titles

The Zelazny story about the computer resurecting man is called
        "For Breath I Tarry..."

I read it in a Terr Carr anthology, perhaps 1969.  The story IS 
excellent; the master computer (called "Solcon") is in orbit.  It
rules the earth for the great rebuilding:  Solcon and its leutennant 
computers are rebuilding the earth to be fit for man.  Unfortunately 
they were not programmed to condisider the case of the men being all
dead, centurys.

And then two other system bugs arise:  an accident activiates the
emergency backup computer, Divcon, who vies for control.  And Solcon's
finest leutennant contains some non-standard circutry, and is acting
strangely...


I also recommend "The Keys to December" by Zelazny, in the same 
anthology.  Another excellent story.  Does anyone have any guesses as
to why RZ's modern output is so inferior to these storys?

        gordon letwin
        microsoft
        decvax!microsoft!gordonl

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 83 10:13:59-PST (Mon)
From: CAD.kalash@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny and ReReVenus - (nf)

        The Zelazny short story you refer to is called "For a Breath I
Tarry", and can be found in the short story collection "The Last 
Defender of Camelot".

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 83 0:09:40-PST (Mon)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny and ReReVenus - (nf)

I also enjoy Zelazny.  His AMBER series is well-known but declines in
quality considerably.  I found the first three books readable but the
last two not so hot.  His shorts in THE DOORS OF HIS FACE, THE LAMPS
OF HIS MOUTH are pretty good.  THIS IMMORTAL, LORD OF LIGHT, and THE
DREAM MASTER are interesting.  ROADMARKS is a well-worn path.  There
are a lot of others.  He is prolific but maintains a reasonable
quality; I believe Zelazny's latest is EYE OF CAT.

        Stuart

------------------------------

From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@Berkeley.arpa
Date: 20 Feb 83 14:24:41-PST (Sun)
Subject: Roger Zelazny and ReReVenus

Since there's been a lot of interest in this list about Zelazny lately,
here's the entry from Nicholl's (THE SCIENCE FICTION ENCYCLOPEDIA), an
excellent reference book on SF.

    ZELAZNY, ROGER (1937- ).

    American writer, born in Ohio, with MA from  Columbia  University
    in 1962.  With Samuel R.  Delany and Harlan Ellison he is a lead-
    ing and representative figure of the American "new wave" sf  that
    urged  a  shift  of  emphasis from the external world of the hard
    sciences to the internal worlds  explorable  through  disciplines
    like  psychology (mostly Jungian), sociology, linguistics and the
    like.  From 1962 to '69, RZ was employed by the  Social  Security
    Administration in Cleveland, Ohio, and Baltimore, Maryland.  From
    1969 he has been a full-time writer, and from 1975 he  has  lived
    in  New  Mexico.   The external events of his life do not, there-
    fore, show the restlessness characteristic of the  other  members
    of the new-wave triad.

    RZ's first published story was "Passion Play" (1962) in AMZ,  and
    for  several  years  he was reasonably prolific in shorter forms,
    for a time using the  pseudonym  Harrison  Denmark  when  stories
    piled  up in AMZ and Fantastic; but more and more he concentrated
    on novels.  The magazine titles of his first  two  books  are  as
    well known as their book titles, and the awards given them attach
    to the magazine titles.  THIS IMMORTAL (1965 FSF as "...And  Call
    me Conrad"; exp 1966) won the 1966 Hugo award for best novel; THE
    DREAM MASTER (1965 AMZ as "He Who Shapes"; exp 1966) won the 1965
    Nebula for best novella.  Both books are remarkably intense, nar-
    ratively experimental, explosively  conceived  new-wave  efforts,
    and with RZ's concurrent Nebula for best novelette for "The Doors
    of His Face, The Lamps of His Mouth" (1965)  decisively  signaled
    the  arrival on the sf scene of new styles and new concerns.  All
    are substantial works.  THIS IMMORTAL  features  a  favourite  RZ
    protagonist, the extremely long-lived or immortal (or somehow in-
    vulnerable) human who lives a kinetically active but highly  cul-
    tured life, spending much of his time manipulating and protecting
    his fellow Homo sapiens, in this case  against  a  complex  alien
    threat.   "The Doors of His Face, The Lamps of His Mouth" depicts
    with an unparalleled literate intensity the  hunting  of  a  huge
    sea-monster.  In some ways THE DREAM MASTER is the most interest-
    ing of the three.  Throughout his career RZ has had a tendency to
    side,  perhaps  a  little  too openly, with his complexly gifted,
    vain, dominating protagonists, and his treatment of neuropartici-
    pant  psychiatrist  Charles Render seems no different.  Render is
    eminent in his new field of psychiatry, which involves his  actu-
    ally  entering and controlling (for therapeutic reasons) the sub-
    conscious experiences of his patients, and he does  so  superbly;
    nor  does his involvement witha congenitally blind woman, and his
    attempt to give her dreams a visual content, appear to provide an
    exception.   But  gradually his own deficiencies as a person, his
    patient's character, and dovetailing crises in his own life subt-
    ly  and  terrifyingly trap him in a highly plausible psychic cul-
    de-sac.  All the sf apparatus of the  story,  and  its  sometimes
    overly  baroque manner, are integrated into RZ's unveiling of the
    nature of a character under stress.  This  reversal  of  emphasis
    lies at the heard of what the new wave was all about.

    RZ's two story collections are drawn mainly from  these  scintil-
    lating  early years.  They are FOUR FOR TOMORROW (coll.  1967; vt
    A ROSE FOR ECCLESIASTES UK) and THE DOORS OF HIS FACE, THE  LAMPS
    OF  HIS  MOUTH, AND OTHER STORIES (coll.  1971).  His next novel,
    LORD OF LIGHT (1967), which won a 1968 Hugo, is also richly  con-
    ceived  and  plotted  dealing  expansively with a group of men on
    another planet who, aided  by  superior  technology,  impersonate
    (and  in  a  sense  become) the Hindu pantheon of gods.  However,
    from ISLE OF THE DEAD (1969) and CREATURES OF LIGHT AND  DARKNESS
    (1969),  some  falling-off became evident; RZ's storylines became
    simpler, somewhat coarser, darker.   DAMNATION  ALLEY  (1969)  is
    perhaps  the  most  savage  of  all,  depicting  a post-holocaust
    motorcycle-treak across a vicious America;  it  has  been  filmed
    with many changes as DAMNATION ALLEY (1977).

    In 1970 RZ began his continuing "Amber" series - NINE PRINCES  IN
    AMBER  (1970),  THE  GUNS  OF  AVALON (1972), SIGN OF THE UNICORN
    (1975) and THE HAND OF OBERON (1976), with, it is understood, one
    further  volume  projected,  [final book in the quintology is THE
    COURTS OF CHAOS], but no end as yet in  sight  -  to  a  somewhat
    mixed reaction.  The land of Amber (like C.S> Lewis's Narnia) ex-
    ists on a plane of greater fundamental reality  than  Earth,  and
    provides normal reality with its ontological base; unlike Narnia,
    however, Amber (to date) is ruled by a cabal  of  squabbling  si-
    blings,  whose quasi-Olympian feudings have provided a great deal
    of complicated plotting; the climax (which must  be  forthcoming)
    may resolve the somewhat aimless though often locally interesting
    impression the sequence gives so far.  More recently, RZ has made
    something  of  a comeback.  Though his collaboration with Phillip
    K.  Dick, DEUS IRAE (1976) finds him labouring  somewhat  in  the
    unstable Dick world.  MY NAME IS LEGION (coll.  of linked stories
    1976), about another behind-the-scenes manipulator  who  has  ob-
    tained  his invisibility from the omnipresent computers, contains
    the novella "Home is the Hangman" (1975), winner of both  a  Hugo
    and a Nebula, in which the protagonist is hired to protect guilty
    programmers from the robot-cum-computer with  a  brain  of  human
    complexity  that  has  apparently  returned to Earth to kill them
    off.  This turns out not to  be  the  case,  very  interestingly.
    DOORWAYS  IN THE SAND (1976) is also a relatively successful sto-
    ry, close to space opera in theme but expertly handled.

    Through his career RZ has suffered the inevitable price of  writ-
    ing  at the peak of intensity and conviction - that of slackening
    into routine when his obsessive concerns have been given  defini-
    tive  form.  With RZ this happened early.  His arduous investiga-
    tions of "inner space", into the ways  human  beings  respond  to
    deep psychic challenges, seemed to have exhausted him for several
    years, a period during which he sustained his career  by  writing
    competent  but somewhat distant novels.  Without the burning con-
    viction of the first novels, his secret-guardian protagonists be-
    gan  to  seem rather self-indulgent.  But, as he is still a rela-
    tively young writer, the recent signs  of  creative  renewal  are
    good news indeed for the genre he has so invigorated.

                                -- John Clute, 1979

    Other works: JACK  OF  SHADOWS  (1971);  TODAY  WE  CHOOSE  FACES
    (1973);  TO  DIE  IN ITALBAR (1973), featuring the protagonist of
    ISLE OF THE DEAD; BRIDGE OF  ASHES  (1976).   As  editor:  NEBULA
    AWARD STORIES THREE (anth.  1968) .

    About the author: "Faust & Archimedes" in THE  JEWEL-HINGED  JAW:
    NOTES  ON THE LANGUAGE OF SCIENCE FICTION (coll.  1977) by Samuel
    R.  Delany; "Introduction" by Ormond Seavey  to  the  1976  Gregg
    Press  printing  of THE DREAM MASTER; "Zelazny's DAMNATION ALLEY:
    Hell noh" by Carl B.  Yoke in Extrapolation (Vol.  15 no 1).  Dec
    1973

    Several recent works: DILVISH THE  DAMNED,  COILS  (with  F.  Sa-
    berhagen), THE CHANGING LAND, THE CHANGLING, EYE OF CAT.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 83 19:02:20-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jss@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny and ReReVenus

Has anyone read "Coils" by Zelazny and Saberhagen? I would say it was
written by Z with plotting by S. The leading character is Z's usual
persona.

judith !decvax!brunix!jss

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 83 21:42:15-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter (Jerry Leichter)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny and ReReVenus - (nf)

Also recent by Zelazny - along with Fred Saberhagen - is Coils - a
nice variation on some "worldnet" ideas, and well worth reading.

My favorite Zelazny's include a short story "A Rose For Ecclesiastes",
and a couple of novels, including particularly "To Die In Italbar"
(which is actually in a common universe with a book written much
earlier, and I think out of print until recently - "The Isle of the
Dead", which isn't quite as good.  I wish he'd write more books in
this universe...)  I also recommend the double Today We Choose
Faces/Bridge of Ashes.

I was unimpressed with Roadmarks, and I've never really been excited
about his Amber stuff or other stuff in a similar vein (like Jack of
Shadows).
                                                        -- Jerry
                                                decvax!yale-comix!leichter

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 83 12:11:09-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!cca!csin!cjh (Chip Hitchcock)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Nichols Encyclopedia view of Zelazny

In response to your message of Tue Feb 22 00:21:58 1983:

   As usual in the longer Nichols entries, there is a howler in this
one:  Narnia does \not/ provide the ontological basis for the
universe. This is shown conclusively in THE MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW, in
which (rather than going straight to Narnia) all travel occurs through
a wood of worlds, and emphasized in THE LAST BATTLE, in which the
Narnia that we knew is shown as merely a shadow of the ur-Narnia which
the redeemed enter into.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 83 16:32:45-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!unc!tim (Tim Maroney)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Riverworld: Farmer vs. Pynchon

I disagree that Zelazny's modern output is vastly inferior to his 
older stuff. Granted, there hasn't been another Lord of Light or Nine
Princes in Amber, but these books are well worth reading:  Roadmarks,
Doorways in the Sand, Madwand, and Dilvish the Damned.  I do not
recommend Changeling (although it would help if you're going to read
Madwand) or The Changing Land; the first is a technology vs. magic
story (eeeyuucchhh), and the second is a plotless and rambling fantasy
adventure. His collaboration with Saberhagen, Coils, is fun if
improbable, and I haven't yet read his absolute latest, Eye of Cat.

Tim Maroney

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 83 20:31:53-PST (Mon)
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!tektronix!rich@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Zelazny

   Some say Roger is just getting tired in his old age. I refuse to 
believe this. The last note I got from him mentioned a couple new
books he is working on. Perhaps the style you have come to know and
love will return. "Coils" is a fair attempt (even though it sounds
"tired").
                                          Rich Amber (yes, I'm "real")

------------------------------

Date: 23 Feb 83 11:42:43-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!genradbo!linus!security!tfl (Tom Litant)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: 

I've been reading Zelazny for about fifteen years now, so considering
the recent interest on the net, I thought I'd tender a few thoughts.

1) Yes his style has changed. If you've been following the Amber
series, you'll notice a change in his description of places and
settings from forest-like (when he was living on the east coast), to
desert-like (when he moved to Santa Fe).  This change of scenery is
also noticeable in LAST EXIT...  (p.s., the doc mentionned in that
book is a reference to Doc Savage, and the assassin is Johnny
Sunlight, also from the Doc Savage series.)  If you've ever driven
from Albuquerque to Santa Fe you may have gotten the incredible 
experience of seeing what was described in LAST EXIT. Is the most
beautiful (unearthly) stretch of highway in the US.  2) RZ has always
shown evidence of his scholastic background (i.e., 17th cent english
lit.).  Thus, in many of his best works his heros are symbols, just 
like in 17th cent morality plays (e.g. ENOUGH IS AS GOOD AS A FEAST,
EVERYMAN, etc.).  In addition, his best heros have been cursed with
the hamlet syndrome, where things have no simple answers, and any
choice is fraught with ethical repercussions (e.g. LORD OF LIGHT).
Lately, though, he seems to be caught up in the marketability of
mediochre fantasy.  3) Although I agree that AMBER does not stack up
well against his earlier material, I think that you have to understand
all that's going on in Amber to appreciate it (hint: RZ himself
appears in this series. In fact, he's even referred to as `Roger.' Can
you locate the reference?).  AMBER is based on three philosophers:
Plato, Hegel, and Nietzsche.  In particular, see the MYTH OF THE CAVE
in the REPUBLIC, and THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA.  I got to ask RZ at 
DISCON II (washington, 1974, I think) whether his cribbing from
various sources such as the ones above, and Milton's PARADISE LOST in
LORD OF LIGHT, was intentional or not.  He merely grinned, and replied
that he did a lot of that. I got the impression from talking to him
that his books were filled with sly references (the new moon with the
old moon in her arms in NINE PRINCESES was stolen from the poem: SIR
PATRICK SPENSE) and in-jokes ("WUNLIPS" as opposed to tulips in LORD
OF LIGHT), and yet, unlike James Joyce, one's appreciation of his
books is not supposed to be based on `getting' them.  Because of my
mongrel background (my undergrad work was in philosophy and english
lit) I pick up on a lot of them, but I'm concerned that these in-jokes
are not sufficient to sustain the sub-standard stuff he's writing now.
4) Of all of the SF I read these days, I still consider RZ to be
special.  He's not interested in the sociology of social change, as is
Dickson, or the technology of social change, as is Heinlein, but in
the effect that social change has on the individual, perhaps of
god-like stature, but still driven by the same social conscience that
drives us (at least some of us).  Perhaps I just like my heroes to
have a little self-doubt, though not enough to immobilize them
totally.  5) I hope that it has become apparent that I like to deal
with SF as literature, very special literature, but literature
none-the-less (and I think that that 5% of SF stacks up quite well
against classical literature, thank you).  If anyone else would like
to discuss it on that basis, I'd really be glad to talk with you.  Use
either my net address, or write me:

                       Tom Litant
                       3 Baron Pk. Lane, Apt 36
                       Burlington, MA 01803

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 10-May-83 00:55:35
Date:  9 May 83 2352-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #3
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 10 May 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 3

Today's Topics:
                Administrivia - General Announcement,
             Books - Foundation Series & 2010 (4 msgs) &
                    General Heinleinisms (11 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 May 1983 2203-EDT
From: PLEASANT@RU-GREEN
Subject: General Announcement

Hi Folks,
        now that most of the files needed to deal with the
distribution of the sf-lovers digest have been moved to rutgers, i'd
like to introduce fred kiesche and announce that he will actually
handle most the work involved in distributing this digest.  as a new
moderator upon the scene, fred may have a few problems at the
beginning but i'll be staring over his shoulder for a little while.
so, welcome to sf-lovers......

-mel and fred

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 83 19:35:43-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton@UCB-C70
Subject: Re: Speculation about FOUNDATION sequels

I must admit that I was surprised to find Asimov leaving loose ends in
Foundation's Edge.  After all the noise he made about how much he did 
not want to write more science fiction and in particular more 
Foundation, I was amazed to see him write a book that demands a 
sequel.

As those of you have read it know, Earth is mentioned a lot in the 
book.  As soon as I heard mention of this, I thought for sure that the
people of Earth, with enhanced minds, were the secret Foundation 
keeping the Seldon plan under control.  The fact that all Earth 
records had been wiped from the Trantor library was a certain clue, 
and even more interesting was the statement that the Synapsifier 
experiments were a failure.  If you read "Pebble in the Sky", they 
were NOT, and Earth's plan was to set up a secret council of smart 
guys using the device.  Clearly they have done so.

Having read the Foundation series, and knowing Asimov's habit of 
pulling surprises like who the mule was and who the Second 
Foundationers were, it was obvious to me that the Trantorian woman was
not what she seemed.  I was sure she was an Earthwoman, however, so 
Asimov did fool me in that respect.  My bet is that somebody in that 
fray (perhaps the guy from the Sirius sector) is in fact from Earth.

I thought that the Gaia affair was a side-track, but I did find the 
planet fascinating, and one of the best examples of a 
group-consciousness I have read.  You have to hand it to old masters 
like Asimov, they did not get their reputations for nothing.


I must also strongly suggest people read 2010.  It is a fine book, 
perhaps better written than Foundation's Edge.  It leaves few loose 
ends, so there is less to talk about.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 83 11:00:09-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis@UCB-C70
Subject: 2010

Just read Odyssey II by Arthur C. Clarke.  I was not expecting much
from a "sequel" book, but I was pleasantly surprised.  Clarke is quite
a scientist, and he uses the knowledge he has acquired over the last
15 years to help him write this book.  I'm sure many of you CS types
found HAL's sophistication hard to swallow; he seems to try to explain
and justify how these 9000 series computers work with a lot of jargon
that seems closer to 1980's "reality".  Also, his use of the
information from our Voyager missions is excellent.

As to the drama side, I found the story reasonably exciting; I did not
put the book down until I finished it (4AM!).  However, I suspect
there are other SF authors who can get you involved better with the
characters.  Clarke is still pretty good.

Two negative things.  I found myself disappointed that he decided to
follow the movie of 2001 where it differed from his book (He claims
the book was written first, then modified as the movie was being
made).  Also, sometimes, especially in the epilogue, I was make a
little uncomfortable by all his apologies and justifications for the
story, but then again, I'd be a little nervous two, if I was trying to
get people to like a sequel to a great story.

My mother sez she's heard a movie will be made from 2010.  Wouldn't it
be nice if Kubrick directed again?

                                                Jim Heliotis

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jan 83 18:32:59-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!bstempleton@UCB-C70
Subject: Re: 2010

Kubrick doesn't seem to like to do sequels...

Anyway, Clarke justifies using Jupiter in 2010 because we know so much
more about the moons of Jupiter from the space missions.

We know a fair bit about Saturn, but not as much.  Also, for those who
read it, it's important that it is Jupiter for what happens.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 83 10:43:04-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@UCB-C70
Subject: Re: Re: 2010 - (nf)

Jupiter was used in 2001 movie simply because at that time special
effects could not realistically duplicate Saturn's rings.  Nowadays,
of course, it's almost "trivial" compared to things like the trip
through the asteroid belt in "The Empire Strikes Back" (my favorite
special effect).

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 83 10:42:07-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@UCB-C70
Subject: Re: 2010 - (nf)

A recent LOCUS said something about Clarke telling Kubrick he would
not be involved and not to allow any other director on it in
Kubrick's dealings with whatever company is producing it.
Personally, if it has to be done, Kubrick should do it, because
anyone else would foul it up; however if "2010: The Movie" can be
avoided, by all means I hope it is canned.

        Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 83 2:19:37-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!nmtvax!student@Berkeley
Subject: Heinlein's last book

Does ANYBODY out there understand the ending of the latest "The Number
of the Beast"? I loved it until the last 20 pages and I need
HELPPPPPPPP!  Any ideas or info on what to read to know R.A.H. was
talking about will be GREATLY appreciated!

                                       Greg Hennessy
                                       New Mexico Tech Vax

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 83 12:27:01-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhuxh!mhuxm!mhuxv!mhuxi!macrev@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest book

I don't think R.A.H. knew what he was talking about, either.  I
finished the book about a month ago, and I don't even remember how
it ended.  In fact, the only reason I finished it was a forlorn hope
that Heinlein would somehow pull everything together at the end.  I
could be specific about what I didn't like in "The Number of the
Beast," but I might give something away that would spoil it for
someone else.  Suffice it to say that I was sucked in to reading it
by the hype it received in the N.Y. Times Book Review.  IN MY
OPINION: Heinlein has done a lot of very good "young adult" science
fiction -- He and Andre Norton were my favorites a LONG time ago.
In recent years, Heinlein has been writing (deliberately) to an
older audience, and he doesn't do very well.  His writing suffers in
two critical areas: his dialogue is forced and artificial, and his
characterization is poor.

I'm going to keep going while I've got my soapbox out.  In fact, I'd
like to see some feedback on some of this.  Heinlein is an SF
old-timer.  He's one of those people who had been writing SF for 20
or 25 years when, in the mid-sixties, sex started showing up
regularly in SF.  He and others like him (Farmer, Pohl, Sturgeon)
felt (I guess) that they had to change.  Some of them didn't make
the change very gracefully, and Heinlein is one of those.  (I
mention sex, but there were other changes in SF.  Women began to
have major roles in stories, Women authors began to use their real
names, and SF heroes with character flaws began to show up.  Science
fiction was maturing.)

"The Number of the Beast" has an air of desperation about it.  I
wondered when I read it if Heinlein wasn't making a final pitch for
a piece of a worldly, more sophisticated SF audience.

Mike Lynch
BTL Short Hills, NJ
harpo!mhuxi!macrev

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 83 10:03:42-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!microsof!uw-beave!uw-june!uw70!charles@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Heinlein's "The Number of the Beast"

I have a theory about the ending of "The Number of the Beast".
Heinlein ran out of ideas near the end of the book, and just didn't
finish it.  If he didn't run out of ideas, then perhaps he had a
stroke that damaged whatever area of the mind that controls creative
thinking. This theory is further demonstrated in his latest book,
"Friday".  This latest book incorporates many standard Heinlein
ideas and thoughts, but nothing new, and without the usual panache
and style we associate with Heinlein.  Maybe Heinlein is dead, and
some half-wit relations have tried to carry on his work, not having
any time for love, and fearing no evil.  Well, who or whatever
happened, reading Heinlein's last two books, I feel like a stranger
in a strange land.

                          Charles Camisa
                          (Jubal in another incarnation)
                          Geophysics Lab
                          University of Washington

------------------------------

Date: 4 Feb 83 13:10:54-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!yale-com!kaufman@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Heinlein"s last book

Well, part of it makes sense in the context of "Time Enough for Love"
- but only some!  I have reread that ending 2-3 times, and I'm still
not quite sure what he's trying to say.  Also, for the record, I was
upset by the rapid loss of fidelity amongst the four protagonists as
soon as they ran into Lazarus Long and the rest of the 'Methuselahs'
crowd.  Heinlein seemed to be trying hard to demonstrate his theory
by tying together two books - thankfully, he chose two of his own
books - but he ended up straining a little, I think.

        Ramble ramble.
                David Kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 83 12:43:20-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!unc!tim@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Heinlein"s latest book

Mike Lynch made some good points recently about old-time SF writers'
adjustment to the advent of sex in science fiction, but to include
Farmer on his list was absurd. Phillip Jose Farmer was the one who
got sex in SF started! Remember THE LOVERS? Also, this was not
mid-sixties, but late fifties.

Not meaning to flame, just posting a correction,
Tim Maroney

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 83 22:29:35-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!orion!lime!burdvax!bmcjmp@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Heinlein's LATEST book

The title of Heinlein's LATEST book is "FRIDAY", the title being the
name of the main character, who is a woman. I have not read it, but
a friend says it is better than some of the books he published just
prior to it, and most notably was better than "NUMBER OF THE BEAST".
This is her opinion -- not having read either book, I can't back it
up, but thought I'd pass the opinion along.

                        Barb Puder
                        burdvax!bmcjmp

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 83 11:00:00-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!mhuxi!macrev@Berkeley
Subject: Farmer and sex

I did an awful job of making my point in my article about SF
old-timers and sex.  I certainly don't think that Farmer, Sturgeon,
and Pohl have the same problems with sex that Heinlein has.  I too
consider Farmer a ground-breaker for sex in SF.  I do, however,
stand by my contention that sex began to appear routinely in SF in
the mid-sixties.  There was some before then, but not in what I
think of as "mainstream" SF.

Mike Lynch
mhuxi!macrev

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 83 6:36:32-PST (Mon)
From: npois!npoiv!hou5f!ariel!vax135!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!nmtva
From: x!224mitc@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Heinlein"s last book

R.A.H.'s last few pages in "THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST" cannot be
expected to make much sense.  You all must realize that he is over 70
years of age, and a prime candidate for senility.  How can anybody
expect to receive revelations from a babbling infant?

                                        mm

------------------------------

Date: 7 Feb 83 22:55:41-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!bam@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Heinlein"s latest book

I was saddened by "The Number of The Beast".  Heinlein did in fact
seem senile especially toward the end.

I guess he must have recovered from his CVA, "Friday" was a welcome
return to the old (almost) Heinlein from yesteryear.  He's still
chasing young girls, but at least you can follow the story again.

Bret Marquis
UC San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 83 9:14:16-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5h!dcn@Berkeley
Subject: Pointer to an Explanation of NotB

        If you really want an explanation of the ending of
Heinlein's "Number of the Beast," read Spider Robinson's review in
Analog.  I tried to find it this morning, but it must be from an
issue older than Dec. 1981.  (I have the older issues stored back in
Indiana)

        I agree in part about "NotB" suffering in comparison to "The
Moon is a Harsh Mistress" or "Time Enough for Love", but I still
enjoyed most of it.  But, I disagree on "Friday", the latest book.  I
think Heinlein is returning to his old (more enjoyable) form: a strong
protagonist fighting real problems.

                                                Dave Newkirk
                                                ixn5h!dcn

------------------------------

Date: 8 Feb 83 17:13:52-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jss@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Heinlein's latest book

    Everyone is being so polite. I thought 'Number of the Beast' stunk
out loud.  I read a lot of Heinlein when I was a very young teenager.
When I look back at some of it, I feel that he was writing better
then, but I shudder at some of the ideas that I was internalizing.
Most specifically, there is REALLY a line in 'Moon is a Harsh
Mistress' to the effect "She was terrific.  She was as good as a man."
Really.  Mike Lynch seems to be right about the changes that came when
the old-timers 'discovered' sex. However, I don't think we can include
Farmer, whom I sort of remember as INVENTING sex-in-science-fiction
(and wasn't there a GREAT DEAL of flaming about "lovers" and "mother"
at the time?)

judith
!decvax!brunix!jss

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 17-May-83 00:03:23
Date: 16 May 83 2357-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #4
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 May 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 4

Today's Topics:
          Books - Douglas Adams and the Universe (13 msgs) &
                Speculations on M. A. Foster (2 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 83 9:46:11-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide revisited

     LtUaE ("Life, the Universe, and Everything" - about time we
"acronymed" it!)  was available in Boston in paperback (the English
edition) several months back.  Probably still is...

     I've bought all three of the HHG books in the English paperback
form (for con- sistency, since that's the way I bought the first one)
and have always wished for a "physical diff" so I could find out
EXACTLY how the differed from the American versions.

                               -- Jerry
                      decvax!yale-comix!leichter

     BTW, since people are bound to ask: I found the books at the
Science Fiction & Fantasy Bookstore (or something like that) right
near Harvard Square.  (They are right across the street from the
Kennedy school.)  It's quite possible that now that an American
edition is available they will no longer carry the British; I bought
it in late September/early October.  (it = LtUaE) It cost $4.50, so
this is NOT the penny-pincher's method of buying...)

                        -- J

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 83 11:20:05-PST (Tue)
From: decvax!yale-com!kaufman@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Hitchhikers Guide revisited

     For the further information of Boston-area dwellers, LtUaE
(somehow it doesn't "acronym" as well as the others) was available in
the Harvard Coop in British paperback two weekends ago.  It'll
probably be there 'till the American paperback comes out, in about 8
months.

        David Kaufman
        decvax!yale-comix!kaufman

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 83 10:05:41-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!utah-cs!sask!hssg40!jay@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Life, the universe and everything

"Life, the Universe and Everything":

     A paperback version (English - PAN) is available in Canada.  I
just bought it and finished it. I felt that perhaps it did lack a
little from the previous two, but it certainly has enought appeal to
be worth buying. This paperback edition cost $3.75 Canadian. The ISBN
number is 0 330 26738 8.

                                 Jay

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 83 10:06:19-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!genradbo!linus!security!wdr@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re:  Hitchhiker"s Guide to the Galaxy Series

It is not the wrong question.
6x9=42 in base 13!
    6  x9  =42
     13  13   13
4xthirteen+2=fifty-four=5xten+2=six x nine.
There is a reason they used Scr*bble chits: it spells numbers,
so you can't tell the base.

Obviously, DEEP THOUGHT was not HEXADECIMAL but TRIDECIMAL.

Question: do mice have 3 toes per foot? 3toesX4feet+1tail=13 to count
by.

        BIllRicker

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 83 9:36:26-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!genradbo!linus!security!tfl (Tom Litant)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: DROOD

     Actually, "drood" is a portmanteau word composed of "frood" (see
HITCHHIKER) and "droog" (see A CLOCKWORK ORANGE).

                  ---not afraid to admit my mistakes
                              tom litant

------------------------------

Date: 3 Mar 83 12:29:09-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.retief (Dwight
From: Bartholomew)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re:  Hitchhiker"s Guide to the Galaxy Series

     Hey, wait a second....  In "Life, the Universe and Everything"
the Ultimate Question was not a lightbulb joke.  Let's not lead
innocent people astray.

                                 DUB

------------------------------

Date: 8 Mar 83 1:02:19-PST (Tue)
From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxi!houxz!ihnp4!laidbak!trsvax!iv@Berkeley.a
From: rpa
Subject: Life, the Universe, and Everythingman inews! (nf)

     Wow!!!!!  Marla almost BLEW it!!!!!!!  Had she revealed the
TRUTH, the real question to the answer to "Life, the Universe, and
Everything", the universe as we know it would have disappeared and
been replaced with something even more bizarrely inexplicable since
most of us know by now that the answer to Life, the Universe, and
everything is 42.  (We found out this would happen near the end of
"Life, the Universe and Everything" when the witness Prak [who had
been given the ultimate overdose of a truth serum and was telling the
truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth] revealed that know-
ledge of the Answer and the Question are mutually exclusive).

     What would we do with something even more bizarrely inexplicable
than usenet??

     (No, that's not the question either, otherwise you wouldn't have
been able to read this, as the universe would have been replaced by
something even more bizarrely inexplicable than usenet by now...)

                           John Elliott IV
                   ...{microsoft,laidbak}!trsvax!iv

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 83 13:07:32-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!cca!csin!cjh (Chip Hitchcock)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: 42

     Douglas Adams has been quoted as saying that he picked 42 because
it seemed like a relatively ordinary number which wouldn't be a joke
in and of itself.  It seems that his memory or subconscious may have
tricked him; I was told yesterday of an English fanzine editor who has
published a zine called "42" for several years and has recently (to
his distress) been inundated with "Hitchies" (well, that's what \he/
calls them). He named his zine after mentions in the works of Lewis
Carroll (among other things, 42 comes up in "The Hunting of the
Snark").

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 83 12:02:26-PST (Sat)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!kirk!russ (kirk!russ) at Ucb-Vax
Subject: New Book by Adams and Dyson - (nf)

     Douglas Adams and Freeman Dyson are said to be collaborating on a
new book: "Disturbing the Universe and Everything".

                             Russ Nelson
                        ...hp-pcd!hp-cvd!russ

p.s. :-) Freeman really is writing a new book, but it's not sf.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Apr 83 22:58:03-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxa!mhb5b!smb at Ucb-Vax
Subject: origin of 42?

     For all you fans of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", I just
found this passage in Alice in Wonderland [chapter XII]:

        At this moment the King, who had been for some time buisly
        writing in his note-book, called out "Silence!" and read out
        from his book, "Rule Forty-two.  All persons more than a mile
        high to leave the court."

        Everybody looked at Alice.

        "I'm not a mile high," said Alice.

        "You are," said the King.

        "Nearly two miles high," added the Queen.

        "Well, I shan't go, at any rate," said Alice; "besides, that's
        not a regular rule:  you invented it just now."

        "It's the oldest rule in the book," said the King.

        "Then it ought to be Number One," said Alice.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Apr 83 9:12:36-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!microsof!uw-beave!cornell!houxi!hou5d!hou5a!jhc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 42

     There is at least one other occurence of 42 in Carroll: in The
Hunting of the Snark, Fit the (aaaah - I forgot).

     The stanza is (from memory)

        He had forty-two boxes all carefully packed
        With his name clearly painted on each
        But since he neglected to mention the fact
        They were all left behind on the beach.

     As I recall, 'he' is the Banker, and that is the reason that
nobody knew his name (it was on the boxes, which were...)  throughout
the agony.

     Anyone got copies of each handy for the publication dates ?  I
suspect that 'Wonderland' predates 'Snark', but without my copies of
the Annotated Alice/Snark I am lost.

                            Jonathan Clark
                             ABI Holmdel
                       [houx*|ariel]!hou5a!jhc

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 83 3:25:08-PST (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: 42 - (nf)

     Fit the First, Baker, A's A in W'l in 1865, T the L G, a W A F T
in 1871, and T H of the S, an A in E F in 1876.

                                  -b

------------------------------

Date: 13 Feb 83 21:01:10-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Hitchhiker's Guide revisited

     "LIFE, THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING" is certainly available in
hardback; it cost me about $7 on sale, and completed my hardback set.
There is also apparently a NEL (?) paperback edition from the UK which
you can get in a few places here; suit yourself.  My humble and
personal opinion is that LIFE is the best book of the three so far.

     Adams seems to be "spending a year dead for tax reasons" and
hence is on the lecture circuit in the States again.  He appeared here
at UCSD last week and I got to see him.  He read from the three books
for an hour then spent another hour answering questions.  The readings
were fantastic -- no one but the author really knows how to make the
stuff come out right, I guess.  The most memorable readings were the
tutorial on flying from LIFE and the confrontation between Marvin and
the Frogstar battle robot from RESTAURANT.  Adams does a wonderful
version of Marvin -- he comes off as a British-accented HAL, with the
same psychopathic air about him.  Adams coyly said that the next book
would take its title from the passage dealing with the departure of
the dolphins from HITCHHIKER'S; it was obvious that the audience was
rooting for a particular line (heck, so was I) when he read through
it.  He has not (of course) started writing the book yet...

     Yes, there is a movie deal.  Adams anecdotally discussed the ABC
TV series fiasco and said that he had been able to convince the movie
sponsors that it would be a mistake to try and Americanize
HITCHHIKER'S; all the original British cast members will be auditioned
for the parts in the movie.  Unlike the British TV series, all the
computer graphics in the movie will probably be real computer graphics
rather than ordinary animations; this in spite of the fact that the
animations were about the only worthwhile aspect of the TV series
(personal opinion here).  (When Adams came out on stage he said that
this would be a "menu-driven talk" with lots of user "options"...
obviously he has spent too much time with computer types.)

     Joke dept.: I can't tell this one but when Adams does it it is
tremendously funny.  Maybe someone out there can do it right.  Does
everyone remember "Beyond the Fringe"?  The members of this comedy
revue were Jonathan Miller, Alan Bennet, Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.
Peter and Dudley are still quite notorious comedians, but Jonathan
Miller, M. D., is now a bigshot producer at the BBC, making and
hosting series like "THE BODY IN QUESTION" and the Shakespeare plays.
One of the episodes of BODY involved blood donation, and at the end of
the show Miller encourages all viewers to go out and donate; in fact
Miller has signed over his cadaver to research.  Adams was talking to
Peter Cook recently, who said that he had heard about this and had
decided to be equally noble: when he dies his body will be donated to
necrophilia...

42,

Donn Seeley  UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF  ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
             (619) 452-4016             sdamos!donn@nprdc
1

------------------------------

Date: 16 Apr 83 23:42:24-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!rocheste!stuart @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: M. A. Foster

     Does anyone have any biographical data on M. A. Foster, author
of:

                       "The Gameplayers of Zan"

                        "The Warriors of Dawn"

                       "The Day of the Kleesh"

                           "The Morphodite"

                            "Transformer"

                               "Waves"

     There aren't any notes in any of his/her books that I have,
although there was (finally) a dedication in "Transformer".

                                Stu Friedberg
                        {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart      UUCP
                                stuart@rochester                ARPA

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 83 16:53:27-PST (Sun)
From: decvax!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: M. A. Foster

     All I know is that he lives in Greensboro NC, and often attends
conventions.  We have a few common acquaintances, but I've never met
him. (Oh yeah -- I believe he is a Catholic.)

                             Tim Maroney

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 17-May-83 01:32:47
Date: 17 May 83 0122-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #5
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 May 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 5

Today's Topics:
                  Books - Clarke and 2010 (2 msgs) &
               Asimov and Foundation's Edge (6 msgs) &
            Haggard's Classics & Anthony's Juxtaposition &
             A Selection of Dick's Best Works (5 msgs) &
                    Various Tasty Disch's (6 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 83 7:17:51-PST (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Re: 2010 - (nf)

     Jupiter was used in 2001 movie simply because at that time
special effects could not realistically duplicate Saturn's rings.
Nowadays, of course, it's almost "trivial" compared to things like the
trip through the asteroid belt in "The Empire Strikes Back" (my
favorite special effect).

                                Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 9 Mar 83 7:17:21-PST (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: 2010 - (nf)

     A recent LOCUS said something about Clarke telling Kubrick he
would not be involved and not to allow any other director on it in
Kubrick's dealings with whatever company is producing it.  Personally,
if it has to be done, Kubrick should do it, because anyone else would
foul it up; however if "2010: The Movie" can be avoided, by all means
I hope it is canned.

                                Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 83 17:43:09-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!nmtvax!student@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: The Foundation Quadtilogy

     Is there anyone else who has read the latest continuation of the
Foundation Trilogy???? I picked me up a copy and thought it was just
fine. For those who have not read it but think they might I won't
spoil it. It is around 498 A.F. (After Foundation) and there is
another Seldon problem (what else!). The Mayor of Terminus and the
First Speaker of the Second Foundation must meet face to face to
resolve this problem. Read the rest yourself.

     For anyone who has already read this book let me know. I want to
discuss several points that don't seem to stack up. PLEASE, PLEASE put
spoiler warnings so we don't spoil the fun for others.


                              Sincerely;
                            Greg Hennessy.
                   ...!ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student

------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 83 19:35:47-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!yale-com!brunix!jss@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: The Foundation Quadtilogy

     Yes, I read "Foundation's Edge", and was very disappointed. it
would have made a fine short, or maybe medium length, story, like all
the stories that made up the first three parts. It was padded out with
repetition after repetition of the same material. furthermore, I could
hardly tell the two 'heroes' apart, as characters.

                                sadly,
                                judith
                          !decvax!brunix!jss

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 83 13:17:59-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece  (uicsl!preece )@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: The Foundation Quadtilogy - (nf)

     I enjoyed FE a lot. I was amazed at Asimov's ability to write in
the same style he used 30 years ago.  One of the previous responses
complains that the book would have been ok in 1952. That's high praise
by the reasonable standard that a book in a series should mesh in
texture and style with the rest of the series. IF, on the other hand,
the book were a stand-alone, its feel would have been anachronistic. I
don't think I could honestly evaluate the book in those terms; its
context is too much a part of my SF frame.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Feb 83 18:44:31-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!hou5b!hou5c!hou5e!mat@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: The Foundation Quadtilogy

     QUADTILOGY ???  Was this word invented recently, or for these
books?  If not, there exists a much older word, which ought to be
used.  It is TETROLOGY and has been used when refering to, in
particular, The Ring of the Nibelung.  Please, let's be a little
moderate in our desire to create new words.  You reqsure cprethyse
sigkew, krnjwe your?

------------------------------

Date: 21 Feb 83 17:48:59-PST (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece  (uicsl!preece )@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: The Foundation Quadtilogy - (nf)

     Actually, it's tetrAlogy, but 'tetrology' is a lot closer than
the other suggestion...

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 83 19:55:38-PST (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!nmtvax!student@Berkeley
Subject: Second Foundation

     It seems to me that the nature of the Second Foundation has
changed quite a bit from the beginning of the series. Hari Seldon
started two Foundation's "at the opposite ends of the galaxy" to stop
the thirty thousand year dark ages that would occur after the Empire
would fall. The First Foundation was set up on Terminus to
(supposedly) create a Galatic Encyclopedia to keep all the knowledge
from being lost. The beginnings were tough and it took fifty years
before the Foundation found it's true mission was to create a new
Empire after 1000 years. While this was going on Salvor Hardin and
Hober Mallow did have plenty of fun though.

     The Second Foundation however had to wait until the third book
until they got some press. I find it slightly hard to believe that the
Second Foundation would be able to develop the mind control
capabilities that they did in only three hundred years while being
bothered by the last of the Imperials. If they were on their own, as
was Terminus, then they might not have a problem. However I am forced
to admit that if Hari Seldon did not know that they could then the
Second Foundation would not be of much use to anyone. Does anyone
think that at some future Seldon cirisis the First Foundation will
find out the truth about the Second Foundation??

     Does anyone have any ideas about Foundation V or VI ad nauseum?
When Asimov was asked if he would rather give up sex or typing he
replied " Well I can type for six hours without getting tired!" Since
he types at a completely disgusting 120 words per minute and only
makes one copy before he sends in the manuscript he can chunk out many
more books before he stops.  After all in the last 20 years (240
months) he has only written 243 books. (Flames leave me alone, I know
that this is not a recent statistic but it serves my point!)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 83 16:10:34-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!cires!harkins@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Haggard

     Nice to see someone else that has read H. Rider Haggard; I read
"SHE" some 15 years ago, but saw a sale table copy of a very nicely
produced book around Christmas (typeset in Britain, printed in
Czechoslovakia, w/ orig.  illustrations in a cloth cover, the way they
used to make them), that had "King Solomon's Mines", "She and Allan"
(Quatermain); great stuff for what it is, especially from a hundred
years later; was glad to hear that there are more that I also hadn't
seen or read (yet).

                            ernie harkins

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 83 20:42:31-PST (Thu)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!hennessy  (hennessy )@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Juxtaposition - (nf)

     I have read Piers Anthony's books "Split Infinity" and "Blue
Adept," and I noticed that in the newer Xanth books there is a new
book out called "Juxtaposition."  Has any one read it or know anything
about it?

                             Rob Hennessy

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 83 9:17:47-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!iy47ab@Berkeley
Subject: Philip K. Dick

     Someone was asking what's good by him.  I usually read short
stories, but after seeing "Bladerunner", a triumph for people like me
who want REAL science fiction in movies (not just space opera, a la
"Star Wars"), I *had* to read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?".
It was very good, although not his best, but extremely different from
the movie; even the theme differed a little!  Still, it gives an added
dimension to the movie (and vice versa) and is well worth your time.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 83 11:52:04-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcsla!erickson@Berkeley
Subject: P.K. Dick

     P. K. Dick books.  My favorites include "Eye in the Sky", "A
Scanner Darkly", "Confessions of a Crap Artist", "Flow My Tears the
Policeman Said".  "Time out of Joint", "Clans of the Alphane Moon",
"Martian Time Slip", "The Three Stigmata of Eldritch Palmer", and
"Ubik" are also quite good.  I should tell you that I a P.K.D.
fanatic.  (Most of the above are still in print; but you'll have to go
to second hand stores (like Zeising Bros.) to get "Eye in the Sky"
(well worth it, it's a really funny book).

     I would warn newcomers to Dick to avoid his recent theolgical sf
(namely "VALIS", "The Divine Invasion", and "The Transmigration of
Timothy Archer").  In particular, I do not recomment VALIS, except to
those fascinated enough by PKD's work to be interested in what one of
the less saner periods of his life was like.

     The above-mentioned "Confessions of a Crap Artist" is not sf but
is one of at least 11 "experimental mainstream novels" Dick wrote
during the first ten years of his writing career. It is exceptionally
good (if you like black humor) and has just been re-released as sf in
the last year.

     His short storys are also quite good: "The Golden Man" and "The
Preserving Machine" are good collections.

Tom  Erickson
UCSD Psyc Department
ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdcsla!erickson

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 83 1:11:27-PST (Sat)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: P.K. Dick - (nf)

     "VALIS" was the first P.K.D. book I read and I found it an
interesting exercise of self-exploration. It prompted me to read much
more of P.K.D. He's one of the few authors I can generally count on
for a good and interesting read.

                                Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 22 Feb 83 22:56:26-PST (Tue)
From: npois!houxm!houxa!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan@Berkeley
Subject: Dick's Best Book

     In my opinion, "THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE" was Philip Dick's
best book.  It has an interesting genesis: Dick used the I Ching to
help plot the story.  The story involves an SF writer writing a story
about an alternate ending to WW II, and he uses the I Ching.  When the
story develops, it turns out that the parallel world--in which German
and Japan LOST WWII--is NOT our world, but another.  I Ching,
YouChing, We all Ching for Ching... .  --(not to carry my Spanish too
far...)

--arlan andrews/american bell /indy

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 83 21:38:26-PST (Sat)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes at Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: P.K. Dick - (nf)

     The worst thing about reading "VALIS" first is that several
running themes in PKDs books show up there, but oddly.  I think they'd
look out of place.  But if you've got a few others under your belt,
you wouldn't be surprised when, say, someone turns out to be a tire
regrover.

                                barry

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 83 21:37:57-PST (Sat)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes at Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: P. K. Dick\s Penultimate Truth - (nf)

     Ah!  I could go on all night...  "The Man in the High Castle",
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep", and "VALIS" are probably my
favorites.  (He was getting strange by the time he wrote "VALIS", so I
don't really recomend it.)  Ubik is also good.  Lotsa stuff, boyo...

                                barry

------------------------------

Date: 9 Apr 83 0:28:50-PST (Sat)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes at Ucb-Vax
Subject: Tasty Disch - (nf)

     Thomas Disch is another for you folk.  Lots of short stories,
well mixed in themes.  And "Camp Concentration" is a real winner of a
book...

                                -barry

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 83 16:03:45-PST (Sun)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!norskog (norskog ) @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Thomas Disch - (nf)

     I am currently reading my first Thomas Disch book, "The
Prisoner", based on the best TV show of all time.

Quote:
        "The fat woman arose from the couch, like a giant
        squid from the ocean, in a froth of pink chiffon."

Good stuff!

------------------------------

Date: 12 Apr 83 14:32:08-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!iy47ab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Tasty Disch - (nf)

     "Camp Concentration" *was* good, but oh!  the literary allusions
that I didn't recognize!  You really need to be a college graduate who
took some lit courses to understand this fully.

                         Arwen the illiterate

------------------------------

Date: 10 Apr 83 11:08:51-PST (Sun)
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!tektronix!tekcad!franka @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Tasty Disch - (nf)

     I find much of Disch's stuff difficult (very rewarding and
execellent writing, but difficult). For a more main-stream
introduction to his works I recommend his short story collection, "101
H-Bombs" and his latest novel, "On Wings of Song".

                             Frank Adrian

uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!tekcad!franka
CSnet:   franka@tek
ARPAnet: franka.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 83 3:24:33-PST (Wed)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!bhayes @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Tasty Disch - (nf)

                            "102 H-bombs"

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 83 22:37:26-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!akhtar @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Thomas Disch - (nf)

     For those of you others who are unfamiliar with Disch's work, I
would strongly recommend 'Camp Concentration', as possibly being
amongst his best novels.

     "The Prisoner" unfortunately does not entirely reflect his
'normal' style, and certainly is only a poor substitute for the
TV series, which is, from what I remember, excellent.

                            uiucdcs!akhtar

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 17-May-83 02:26:43
Date: 17 May 83 0223-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #6
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 17 May 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 6

Today's Topics:
                 Books - Heinlein and Friday (9 msgs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Feb 83 17:59:43-PST (Wed)
From: decvax!microsof!gordonl@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Success of Heinlein's "Friday"

     "Friday" is apparently not a well-liked book: Publishers Central
Bureau (a book remaindering place like Publishers Clearing House) is
offering "Friday" in hardback for $3.98!  The listing says "Published
at $14.95"; the "published at ..." means that this is a book from the
original publisher's press-run.  They use the phrase "Originially
Published at..." to indicate a house pressing.

                            gordon letwin
                       decvax!microsoft!gordonl

------------------------------

Date: 17 Feb 83 9:32:31-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!genradbo!linus!security!tfl (Tom Litant)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: "FRIDAY"

     Well, since someone asked for it, here is a review of "FRIDAY."

     First, before reviewing, I think it's only fair to list my
background and prejudices.  This way, those with divergent backgrounds
can take my review with a hefty shaker of sodium chloride.

     As for my taste in SF, I tend to like the whole range from
hardware SF to Fantasy, with the exception of hardware stories without
characterization (software? firmware? tupperware?), and fantasy
without creativity and logic (all those mindless `quest' novels.
sheesh!).  Thus, my favorite authors tend to be: Heinlein (early),
Zelazny, Anderson, Dickson, E.E. Doc Smith, Asimov (in small doses),
some deCamp, some Robinson and Haldeman, Kurtz (to some extent), plus
the assorted classics by Clarke, Miller, etc.  And, yes, I'm one of
the few ever to struggle through the entire "DAHLGREN" (even five
years later I'm still trying to decide whether it represents a bold
new enterprise or pure ****).

     Anyway, "FRIDAY", I believe, represents the worst in a growing
set of Heinlein's vices.  No, I don't believe that it represents
senility (whatever that is), but it does represent a turning away from
the craftsmanship of earlier years.  For example, there was a
discernable and growing trend from "STRANGER" to "I WILL FEAR NO EVIL"
to "TIME ENOUGH" to "NUMBER" and finally to "FRIDAY" of including
pages and pages of domestic dialogue (chit-chat).  As a progression
(not quite geometric, I'm afraid), the amount of fluff in the above
sequence goes from 1/3 to 2/3 to 7/8 to 8/9 to 2/3 (mild improvement).
That is not to say that Heinlein doesn't occasionally shine with a
modicum of his old talent in these books. For example, in "TIME
ENOUGH", the story about the man who was too lazy to fail was pure
vintage Heinlein.  Perhaps he's been away from the short-story genre
too long, and has forgotten how to write terse prose.

     "FRIDAY", though, was a much greater disappointment than
"NUMBER", because it starts off so well.  Without spoiling it for
those who haven't yet read it, there is a distinct turning point in
the book from fast-paced action, to slow paced and insipid dialogue
(look how hard it is to READ a play, which in its written form, is
pure dialogue stripped of action and setting). In addition, as one who
would love to read an occasional SF story about a liberated female,
minus all of the misanthropy of Joanna Russ, I am distressed by the
manner in which Heinlein's hero Friday is rapidly turned from a female
Doc Savage cum Lensman cum Dorsai etc. into a meek little house frau.
Why does so much SF (with some notable exceptions --- no flames here!)
either treat women as objects to rescue from BEM's, or else
androgynous creatures whose goal in life is to eliminate men as
superfluous, and then take off with the girl next door?

     For those Heinlein freaks with a more literary bent, you might
want to take a look at Sinclair Lewis' "ELMER GANTRY" (very different
from the movie) and "IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE" (can't or won't, I can't
remember the title exactly).  In these two books you can see where
Heinlein gets much of his style, and some of his plots.  For example,
lots of the stuff from "STRANGER" seems influenced by "ELMER GANTRY",
while "IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE" (ICHH) seems to have had an influence on
a number of Heinlein's novels and short stories having to do with a
fundamentalist revolution in the U.S.  Also his stuff about obnoxious
tourists (viz. "PODKAYNE", "ITS GREAT TO BE BACK", etc.) seems to come
right out of Lewis' "DODSWORTH".  Notes of interest: there is, I
believe, a hidden reference to Lewis in one of the first chapters of
"GLORY ROAD".  It says in there something about Oscar Gordon saying
that, in spite of all of the complaining by authors of the 20's about
the lost generation, that they had it easy compared to the people of
the 50's.  Also, in ICHH, written only 2-3 years after "BRAVE NEW
WORLD" (and, to my mind, a more realistic possibility than that
portrayed in "BRAVE NEW WORLD"), there is a hidden reference to
Huxley.  See if you can find it (hint: he's referred to as a nameless
british visitor).

     So, on the Litant Literary Scale (LLS), with 5 stars as the
maximum, "FRIDAY" gets:

characterization: **
plot: *
creativity: **
eveness: *
entertainment: *
intellectual stimulation: *

                        See y'all at BOSKONE.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 83 13:18:14-PST (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!preece  (uicsl!preece )@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Success of Heinlein's 'Friday' - (nf)

     It's hard to see how a book that spent that many weeks on the
Times Bestsellers list could be described as not well liked.  The
remaindering indicates that the final printing and returns left the
publisher with more inventory than was desired in anticipation of the
paperback. I don't recall seeing Friday at bookstore remainder sales,
yet. It could also be that PC is using it as a promo and payed more
than normal remainder prices for it.

     An interesting related question: Are publishers treating the SF
bestsellers like normal bestsellers or like normal SF when it comes to
backlist and inventory? The printing and inventory strategies for
genre stuff and mainline have generally been quite different; how do
publishers respond to the unusual genre item that breaks out to the
mainstream lists? This year's amazing SF performance must have left
the publishers wondering just what to do.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 83 08:16 EST (Friday)
From: KUKUCKA.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Heinlein

     I am glad to see this digest starting up again. I had given up
hope of ever seeing it again. Now down to business. I have just
completed reading Heinlein's Number of the Beast. I was very
disappointed. The story seemed to ramble on forever. If anything it
was a trip down memory lane for Heinlein. There were some good parts
but in general it was a waste of money. I feel sorry for anyone who
bought the book in hardcover. What really bothered me is that he did
not resolve the central issue of the story. Who were the aliens that
were trying to kill the central characters. How did they manage to
change the Earth history to remove all traces of the central
characters but were unable to find them and stop them. If anyone
understands what Heinlein was trying to accomplish in this story
please let me know.

Bill Kukucka

------------------------------

Date: 25 Feb 83 10:52:58-PST (Fri)
From: decvax!genradbo!linus!security!tfl (Tom Litant)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Heinlein SPOILER

     Here follows a table of characters referred to in the last
chapters of "NUMBER OF THE BEAST" that appear in other Heinlein
stories (plus some other assorted sly references).

name                      reference
====                      =========
Lazarus Long              Methusala's Children
                          and Time Enough for Love
Jubal Harshaw             Stranger in a Strange Land
Sir Isaac Newton          Between Planets
The Dane (Holger)         Poul Anderson
                          (ref. to Three Hearts, Three Lions)
Anne, Miriam, and Dorcas  Stranger
Athene                    Time Enough for Love
Oscar Gordon              Glory Road
Star Gordon               Glory Road
Podkayne                  Podkayne of Mars
Bonforte                  Double Star
Libby                     Methusala
Holly (Jones)             The Menace from Earth
Cas + Pol (Stone)         The Rolling Stones
Hoag (Jonathan)           The Unpleasant Profession
                           of Jonathan Hoag
Sarge Smith               E.E. Doc Smith????

     As to someone's question of what Heinlein was trying to do in
these last chapters, I submit the following paragraph by Poul Anderson
as it appeared in "THE PSYCHO-TECHNIC LEAGUE":

I could even imitate Heinlein again and bail out the whole series
by declaring that it shows an alternate cosmos. (p. 285)

     Finally, an interesting trivia question from "FRIDAY".  Friday's
boss, "Kettle Belly," appeared in what previous Heinlein novella?

                      from a drood who knows where his
                      towel is......

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 83 18:04:26-PST (Mon)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!charlie (Charlie Amacher)@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: Heinlein SPOILER - (nf)

     Kettle Belly Baldwin "King of the Kopters", appeared in "Gulf",
one of the better science fiction novellas ever written.  I am not
sure but was Sargeant Smith Lazarus Long's alias in Time Enough for
love?

                              -charlie-

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 83 9:59:30-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!npoiv!hou5a!hou5d!houxz!ihnp4!ihuxp!jma@Berkeley
Subject: Heinlein

     "Starship Troopers" is dedicated to Sarge - Arthur George Smith.
Could this be the Sarge Smith of "The Number of the Beast"?

------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 83 20:33:21-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!genradbo!mitccc!tyg@Berkeley
Subject: Re: Success of Heinlein"s "Friday"

     Well, I guess several weeks on the NYT bestsellers list would
qualify it as being well-liked. Also, it scored quite high on the
preliminary Nebula ballot.  On the other hand, it's been out for
almost a year now, and is certainly due for pb publication soon, which
may be why the discount.  Only wish they'd done it a few moths ago; I
bought a copy for my then girlfriend at full price (- a 15% discount)!

                             tom galloway

------------------------------

Date: 19 Mar 83 12:53:03-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!duke!unc!tim (Tim Maroney) at Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Rebuttal of review of P-1

     "Not that tMiaHM is a bad yarn"???? "The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress" is Heinlein's last really good book (written in the early
sixties), and it is *great*! I strongly recommend it to any sf reader,
especially those currently disgusted with the modern Heinlein.

Tim Maroney

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 21-May-83 00:02:02
Date: 20 May 83 2355-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #7
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 21 May 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 7

Today's Topics:
                Television - Comments on "V" (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 16:13:01-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!mhtsa!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV (NBC)

     I must admit, the first episode of V seemed very good.  Most of
the kids and teachers to whom I talked in school the next day also
liked it.  However, it seems we were just set up.  The conclusion was
anything but that, and they had so many commercials, if they cut them
out, they could have made another episode (for the first hour, we had
7 minutes of show followed by 5 of commercials -- FOR THE ENTIRE
HOUR!)  As it neared the end, I kept saying, ''There's no way they can
end this in fifteen more minutes.''  I was right: There were more
loose ends than in "The Empire Strikes Back" and less of an ending
that in TESB.  All in all, a great disappointment after a decent
buildup.

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 17:01:34-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxa!fdf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV (NBC)

     V is definitely to be a series next year, according to the local
TV guide.

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 7:48:29-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!iwu1d!jvs @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Will V be back?

     I've been watching "V" for the past two nights, May 1 and 2.  It
was touted as a mini-series but it had pilot written all over it.  I
won't be surprised to see this offering in NBC's lineup somewhere down
the line.

     For those of you who missed it, "V" (for Visitor or Victory, take
your pick) was a long TV movie about creatures from another planet
comeing to Earth.  They claim their home planet is in trouble and they
need our help.  In return for our help they will share all of their
scientific knowledge with us.  These aliens also seem to look like us
so the whole world rolls out the red carpet.  It isn't long before
these creatures have the world under marshal law (to protect everyone
from earth's own scientist's?) and really start takeing liberties.
Needless to say, some people are suspecious and they soon discover who
the aliens really are and what they really want.  Meanwhile a
resistence movement has formed to fight the Visitors.  This is how it
ends.

     The show could have been better, but it wasn't too bad (I was
reminded of an old Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man").  There were
a lot of interesting ideas in this show.  It will probably make a good
series if it doesn't come down with an acute case of the cutsies like
some other potentially good science fiction shows have done in the
past.

                                        John V. Smith

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 8:29:01-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!spanky!burl!duke!unc!bch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV (NBC) - (nf)

     Bleah!  Why do the networks show this junk.  Why do we put up
with this junk!  "V" seemed to be a pastiche of an old Flash Gordon
plot (Why are you doing this to us Mr. Alien?  Because We want your
water and your flesh!,) retreaded "Invaders" and "Humanoids From the
Deep" (Can a Lizard-man from outer space find happiness among the
yucky mammals of earth?  How could a reptile impregnate a human?  Why
would a reptile *want* to impregnate a human!?)

     If the networks can do no better than this, then we are stuck
with reruns of "Battlestar Galactica" and "Space 1999" forever.

                        May the Visitors spit venom in the face
                        of the NBC executives...

                                Byron

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 83 8:44:59-PDT (Wed)
From: npois!hou5f!hou5b!hou5c!hou5e!ijk @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: TV Movie "V" - a Semi - Critical review

     Some thoughts about this movie.  Overall, I was rather interested
in it, but I was disappointed by some of the details:

     The opening sequence was very engrossing, but I was disapointed
by the appearance of the deus ex machina ( the flying saucer) that
appeared over El Salvador - after all, these things appeared over
MAJOR world cities, right??

     When this basic scene was repeated ( humans against aliens), it
lost its appeal beacause of the repetition, I guess.  I was struck not
by the analogy to "High Noon," (as someone claimed) but instead by
"Patton," where he gets out and shoots and a strafing plane with his
.45's ( a rather futile attemp, in reality).  Note that shooting down
planes with inexperienced operators is not all that strange - the
miltary now has personal anti-aircraft weapons that are infra-red
guided (similar in concept to the Sidewinder) that would go up the
engine exhaust - a rahter nasty thing to happen compared to a beam
weapon.

     The tactics of that scene disturbed me - first, why was the
commander along on the raid against the humans: the attack was called
off only when she was personally injured (maybe they didn't expect any
resistance).  Anyway, after the attack, everyone just hung around, not
expecting any followup action like a small tactical nuke - boy,those
mean aliens sure don't know how to fight.

        The human organization is pityful - everyone just hangs around
and talks about bringing in more conspirators, etc.  With all the
sympathizers and informants around, a small cell organization with
everyone knowing just a few other people is obviously the way to start
the underground.  All in all, that dedication to freedom fighters was
a bit much - I certainly wouldn't want this movie dedicated to me.

     The possibilities of this being a pilot: one, the open ending
without resolution, two, the teenager pregnant by the alien have been
noted befroe; but did anyone notice the credits (boy, stars, co-stars,
also starring, etc. so everyone could appear near the top of some
list) there were some people listed as "guest" stars - an obvious
tipoff for a series, if I ever saw one.

     Some scientfic criticisms ( this movie wasn't all that bad,
probably not worse than the many things we accepted in Star Tre,et al)
really irritated me: When the aliens appear, they are exactly human
except for voices - boy, talk about parallel evolution.  And then,
they really aren't human, they're reptiles!!! Notice that they enjoy
eating small mammals (and funny enough, large ones too!!), have forked
tongues, can spray venom - the closeness is ridiculous.  And the
ability to impregnate a human - come on, there is enough difficulty
with closely related earth species!!  Finally, this bit about coming 8
light years for food and water - think about the logistics involved!!!
What leader can plan that far ahead that he can afford to send that
many ships and people so far for so long when he is facing other
enemies???  The basic argument against interstellar freight is an
argument from my relativity physics class - to accelerate anything
close to light speeds ( anything slower will take too long) you need
to expend about 95 % of you mass as propulsion (assuming that it exits
at the speed of light; anything else is worse); then you have another
95 % to slow down -> a heck of lot of mass to do this, and not much
brought over: until they repeal the laws of special reletavity, any
interstellar traffic is going to be very, VERY expensive.

     Final point: gee, wasn't real nice at the end of the movie that
radio telescopes (and the scientists to run them) were conveniently
available for earth to broadcast appeals for help (which we expected
friendly aliens to decode and come to our aid in time to make a
difference).

     I guess in some cases my expectations were too high, but really.
The final complaint was the scene with the alien female stripping off
her clothes to her undies.  Did you notice that whenever the broke for
a commercial, they would show us a scene from the next segment; but
that scene was shown 3 or 4 times (but who was counting) - a rather
cheap come on, if you ask me.

                         Respectfully yours,
                              Ihor Kinal
                              hou5e!ijk

P.S. All flames will be zapped by my beam-rayer that is cleverly
        concealed in my left pinkie, so beware!!!!!

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 22:50:47-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!spanky!burl!duke!unc!bch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: "V" to be a television series

     I fear that "V" is to become a series in the fall, based on its
having garnered 48% of the audience.  It isn't exactly the first
series where BEMs invade from outer space in search of our hot tubs,
however.  There was a series in the mid-60s called "The Invaders"
starring Roy Thinnes (I am sure he would just as soon forget) where
the aliens had non-bending pinkies rather than funny-sounding voices
and were sort of formless blobs rather than reptiles.  I recall
distinctly an episode where Our Hero ferrets out an alien posing as a
black human (played by Roscoe Lee Brown, who should have known better)
by noticing that the palms of his hands are the same color as the
back.

     I fully expect to see that plot again next season...and worse.

                            May your children have green skins
                            ...and long tongues

                            Byron

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 9:17:58-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxl!esj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Will V be back?

     I was wondering what the network/producers/whoever was trying to
pull with last night's conclusion.  Could this have been a feature
length movie that bombed in its test screenings, was sold to NBC and
subsequently butchered?  It also seemed that more time was spent in
commercials than in showing the film.

             Jeff "Went to N.U. with Jane Badler" Johnson

------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 23:35:55-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!feldman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV (NBC) - (nf)

     On the second night they made up for the nice "bolt" effect by
having a burning fighter craft leave a trail of "smoke" that was
static in the sequence - it looked like it was hand painted and
overlaid on each frame.

     As for the rest of the production, what can you expect from
today's commercial television industry?  Certainly not plot, dialog,
acting, etc.

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 83 18:26:45-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxm!gjphw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Opinion about V

     After extensive discussion with others about "V", it seems as if
I have been taken in by a pretty face and lots of special effects.
Most of the science in "V" is not correct, the motivation of the
aliens doesn't make sense (it's awfully expensive to travel 6 light
years just for a drink of water), and the plot seemed to be just an
excuse for blaster action.

     Unfortunately, the executives at NBC that may have the final say
about whether or not "V" becomes a series have never been overly
concerned with well written stories in science fiction or accuracy to
present science.  Audience share, which translates into advertizing
dollars, is the sole criterion.

                            Patrick Wyant
                      Bell Labs (Naperville, IL)

------------------------------

Date: 5 May 83 0:00:28-PDT (Thu)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.piner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: V on TV (NBC)

     I think this topic has about run it's course. But I would like to
make a couple of quick observations. First, a lot of us watched "V".
That much can be seen from the number of comments. That means there is
a market for S.F. on TV. I think most of us already know that. Second,
most liked the basic concept of the show, e.g. aliens attemp to take
the planet by political means, rather than direct military conquest.
Third, most of us objected to the many scientific errors in the show.
By scientific, I mean social science as well as physical science.
There were a lot of them. My own pet complaint was the frozen hand
shattering. I have worked with liquid nitrogen, and had a mole removed
by freezing too. It does not freeze tissue that fast, and even then
frozen flesh will not shatter like glass. This all brings me to a
suggestion.

     If someone out there in net land would like to volunteer, I have
a nice summer project. Collect a list of scientific objections to "V"
from people on the net. Then group them, tally the number of
responses, and send them in a letter to NBC, with the suggestion that
they pay more attention to science fact when producing science
fiction. If they are going to make "V" into a series, wouldn't it be
nice if we had some input.  Please do not suggest that I do this,
because I have to do some work on my thesis this summer, I will not
have the time.  Finally, if some brave soul does volunteer, it would
be nice to send the collection of scientific objections to the net.
I'm sure there are more than we have seen so far. Also, I think this
really belongs on net.science, except there is no such thing yet.

                              Rich Piner
                         Purdue Physics Dept.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 21-May-83 00:07:34
Date: 21 May 83 0004-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #8
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 21 May 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 8

Today's Topics:
                Television - Comments on "V" (10 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 May 83 23:51:00-PDT (Tue)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: V on TV....

     One other bit of science, this one more subtle.  They can't
really be from a planet orbiting Sirius.  When Sirius B blew a few
hundred million or so years ago, it certainly would have sterilized
any nearby planets.


                          els[Eric Strobel]
                          pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 83 10:36:44-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV....

     Some more thoughts on the realism of 'V'.  While there were a few
technical inaccuracies, and I think the water theft bit is stretching
it, I felt that for the most part it was eerily realistic.  I'm
talking about emotional realism.  I've often wondered how a Hitler
could come to power, now I have a glimmer of understanding.  The worst
part is the realization that it really could happen here.  Maybe not
with aliens and all that, but maybe if we suffered a limited nuclear
war (or a leaky ABM system) and a few cities were destroyed.
Certainly noone would object to martial law in such a circumstance.
Think about it.

     As for the water theft, if the major need is hydrogen, there's
certainly plenty of that around without having to drain the oceans and
then having to dissociate the hydrogen and oxygen.  Hell, they could
scoop it out of inter- stellar space, after all, we're all in the
Orion arm.  If it's drinking water they want they don't need to
totally drain our planet.  Besides, there's plenty of water around the
universe.  Now, if they needed something like what we call 'strategic
minerals', then it would be a different matter.


                          els[Eric Strobel]
                          pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 83 15:32:02-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!we13!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The "V" Miniseries

     Why in God's name would you cross the interstellar gulfs to get
slaves and/or raw materials? Any race that can cross that much space
can build robots and mine moons...

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 83 17:42:54-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RE: V Stupidity is a Ripoff

     I didn't take long to decide that a race with interstellar
freighters could make water out of interstellar hydrogen, and would
also have the good taste to farm cattle, sheep, etc on Earth instead
of eating the rather bony brainy omnivores who have become so adept at
rasing animals to eat.

     However, a mid-50s classic, "This Island Earth," had a similar
preposterous notion -- that a threatened race with similar space-
travel capabilities came here to enlist some our best atomic
scientists and neclear engineers to help them out!  FISSION yet!  Of
course, they also planned on migrating to Earth if their defenses
failed... Well, i'm not the 1st to say "V" borrowed heavily, but
thought I'd mention a favorite "victim".  BTW, my vote for greatest SF
film of all time is "Forbidden Planet", of the same era.

                                mike k

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 83 11:41:20-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!sdcrdcf!mike @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV....

     Being one who tries to see all sides of an issue, I thought about
"V" trying to come up with a way to like it.  I finally came across an
idea which I think allows me to have some respect for it.  If you view
the show strictly as a suspension of reality and science, rather than
an extension thereof, it begins to make some sense.  For example, when
you watch Superman you don't groan when he spins the Earth the other
way to give Lois a second chance.  You've suspended your requirements
for the Man of Steel to obey currently understood laws of Nature. (If
you're is a real die hard, I suppose you do groan, or try to
rationalize the phenomena in some way).

     The writers of "V" made it quite clear in the credits and their
advertizing that the whole concept was decidedly allegorical.  Perhaps
their constant violations of "common sense" seemed just plausible
enough to be interpreted as attempts at reality, rather than fantasy.
Or maybe the manner in which bogus things occured was not quite
"fantastic" enough to convince us that we should let go of physics and
biology, and concentrate on psychology and morality.

     It seemed to me that the director took care during the scenes
where humanane values were being degraded, and glossed over the action
and adventure aspects.  The filming (jolting cuts to various profile
shots) during the scene where the son who joined the Visitors youth
gang phones headquarters to find that he has been betrayed (lied to)
was particularly effective.

     Well, sorry for the diatribe.  Just thought that viewed from
certain angles, the show had merit.

                            Mike Williams
                      UUCP: randvax!sdcrdcf!mike
                         burdvax!sdcrdcf!mike
                        ucla-vax!sdcrdcf!mike
                         cbosgd!sdcrdcf!mike
                          ihnss!sdcrdcf!mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 83 9:57:26-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!sdcrdcf!markb @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV....

     Speaking of stealing water from the earth, would it not be much
more practical to just steal the rings of Saturn.

     1) No need to drag it up from a gravity well.

     2) No need for tanks, just haul away the ice.

     3) There is a lot more water there then on earth.

     4) No hostile natives to object. We might, but would be at a
        great disadvantage in trying to stop them.

                             Mark Biggar
                   ...decvax!trw-unix!sdcrdcf!markb

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 83 14:33:13-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!spanky!burl!duke!ucf-cs!bratman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The \"V\" Miniseries

     Somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind there exists a faint
glimmer of hope that the enemies of the Space Nazis in the series
would turn out to be Motie Warriors ("Mote in God's Eye -- Niven). Now
THERE would be a series worth watching (I wonder what the Moties would
eat, Salamanders????).

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 83 9:36:26-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "V" had better come back.

     The Space Nazis are really the lost 13th tribe of Kobol!

                                 /crc

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 83 9:25:44-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "V" had better come back.

    NBC hasn't believed in intelligent viewers since they canceled
"STAR TREK", and they aren't going to change their views just to
accommodate the 100/200 million people who shelled out $4.00 to see
"Star Wars", "Empire Strikes Back", "Star Trek 2", "ET" and "Raiders
Of The Lost Ark".

     Not afraid to say I hate Nitwit Television.

                                 /crc

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 83 9:29:25-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!crc @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: V on TV....

     Not only did Sirius B sterilize all of its planets, it sterilized
some executives in NEW YORK.

     (I thought V was very well done for Network TV, which is not the
same thing as saying it was good.)

                                 /crc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 21-May-83 00:51:40
Date: 21 May 83 0047-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #9
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Saturday, 21 May 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 9

Today's Topics:
               Administrivia - The Revenge of the Jedi,
              Movies - The Revenge of the Jedi (7 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 May 83 00:21:18 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN
Subject: RotJ Administrivia

     In order to help keep plot details from spoiling the movie for
those who have not yet seen it, and wish to stay in suspense, I will
be separating all of the messages dealing with RotJ, and mailing them
out under common Digests.  These digests will contain *massive*
spoiler warnings so that you will have plenty of warning if you do not
want to read them.

     Only one problem...who is going to keep me from ruining the
suspense for me?  Time to split the pesonality...

Fred (The Moderator)
-------
SPOILER...SPOILER...SPOILER...SPOILER...SPOILER...SPOILER...

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 83 19:59:38-PST (Fri)
From: ucivax Guest <g.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: RotJ Trip

     The SAMASUCICF (sponser of the infamous SIGI Awards) would like
at this time to extend to any humans, droids, wookies, or other alien
life forms who might care to join it, its invitation to attend the
Saturday evening performance of "Return of the Jedi" on Saturday May
28th 1983.  The SAMASUCICF Crack Suicide Squad will be spending the
Friday night at one of OC's local picture palaces to insure the
appropriation of sufficient tickets.  If you are interested in
participating in this event, please contact John Mangrich (MANGRICH
(DEC-10), grich@uci (icvx), jmangric@uci-unix (unix)) or Tom Johnson
(TOM (DEC-10), tjohnson@uci-unix (unix); messages may also be left at
the Computing Facility Office (CS360)) and tell them how many of your
friends, family, fellow-workers, casual acquaintances, total
strangers, business rivals and blood enemies you wish to bring with
you, so that we can guesstimate the size of the horde we will have to
coordinate.  As many of the details of this adventure are still rather
vague, further announcements will be made as the film date approaches
and more information becomes available.

                                 /tlj

P.S.: For those of you who can't wait until Saturday May 28th, a
      splinter group of SAMASUCICF members will be camping out at
      the theater on Tuesday night (May 24th) for the OC premiere on
      Wednesday.  You are more than welcome to share the cold and
      damp.  (May the Force be with us all!)

------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 83 18:07:01 PST (Thu)
From: ucivax Guest <g.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: RotJ

            A Long Time Ago, In A Galaxy Far, Far Away....

     It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Lucas and Company left them
searching for a parking place in the outer reaches of space with the
Empire hot on their trail. Will Chewie and Lando rescue Han from his
giant popsicle state? Will Luke ever play the piano again? Will Leia
share the secret of cleaning her white on white ensemble?  Will R2D2
and C3P0 be trapped in the stereotype of cute robot characters? Will
Yoda finally show E.T. who is the world's number one cute puppet
alien? Will devoted STAR WARS fans, who were hung out to dry at the
end of "The Empire Strikes Back," survive until the next episode of
"The Adventures of Luke Skywalker"? These and many other questions
will be answered in May of 1983 when Luke Skywalker and Company once
again take to the silver screen in.... "Return of the Jedi".

     AND SAMASUCICF WILL BE THERE!


     On the night of Friday May 27, 1983, under cover of darkness, the
SAMASUCICF Crack Suicide Squad will make its way through the steaming
urban junglning showing of.... "Return of the Jedi".

     The CSS will remain at their posts all night, so fanatically
devoted are they. They will play music and the NPR production ns
Appreciation Society of the University of California, Irvine Computing
Facility would like at this time to extend its invitation to any
humans, droids, wookies, or other alien life forms who would care to
join them in this film fest. If you are interested in participating in
this event, please contact John Mangrich (MANGRICH (DEC-10), grich@uci
(750a), jmangric@uci-unix (750b)) or Tom Johnson (TOM (DEC-10),
tjohnson@uci-unix (750b); messages may also be left at the Computing
Facility Office (CS360)) and tell them how many of your friends,
family, fellow-workers, casual acquaintances, total strangers,
business rivals and blood enemies you wish to bring with you, so we
can guesstimate the size of the horde we will have to coordinate. As
many of the details of this adventure are still rather vague, further
announcements will be made as the film date approaches and more
information becomes available.

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 83 8:18:07-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihnp1!gast @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Return of the Jedi comic leaked

     As printed in the Arlington Heights Daily Herald this morning
(4May83): Byline (and probably copyright) Dann Gire, Herald Film
Critic:

     "A monumental shipping blunder has tipped off more than 250
Northwest Suburban [Chicago] comic book readers to everything that
happens in the upcoming third 'Star Wars' sequel, 'Return of the
Jedi.'

     "An estimated 600 advance copies of Marvel Comics' adaptation of
the story were accidentally shipped to Chicago Friday.  Gary
Colabuono, owner of three Moondog Comics stores in Mount Prospect,
Palatine, and Schaumburg, received 300 and said they went like
proverbial hotcakes.

     "I know everything that happens now,' Colabuono said Tuesday.
'I didn't think I wanted to read it, but I finally broke down and did.
Customers were really wrestling with their consciences with it. They
paid $ 2.50 for the comic, then asked "Should I read it or wait to
see the movie?"

        "'It was a tough decision. After all, they had been waiting
two years to find out what happened to Han Solo and who "the other"
turned out to be. It's going to amaze a lot of people.'

     "Meanwhile, Marvel Comics caught up with its mistake.  Officials
called Colabuono and told him the copies weren't supposed to go on
sale until the film was released on May 25. Too late.  Moondog Comics
had already sold 250 copies in the Northwest suburbs and an estimated
250 were sold in Chicago.

     "Discovery of the 'Jedi' plot twists will probably travel faster
than the Millenium Falcon in hyperspace.

     "For 'Star Wars' fans who want to lay their paws on a hot copy of
the book now, forget it. Colabuono said he has a few copies left, but
Marvel instructed him not to sell them.

     "The Moondog owner did, however, pass along some closely guarded
secrets to a certain suburban movie writer who promised to keep them
to himself. Well, maybe it would be OK to hint that Han Solo thaws out
of his giant Fudgesicle and Princess Leia makes the appropriate choice
between him and rival Luke Skywalker.

     "And the mysterious 'other,' which Yoda spoke of during a ghostly
chat with Obi-Wan Kenobi? Only this much can be revealed: The true
identity of 'the other' is strongly hinted during the final few
minutes of 'The Empire Strikes Back.'

     "Whether you guess who 'the other' is or not, 'Return of the
Jedi' relies on some classic fairy tale inspiration to tie up the
loose ends from 'Empire.'"

     [I don't know about you, but I am going back to look closely at
the final few minutes of 'Empire'!]

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 83 23:21:05-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: ROTJ NOW ON TAPE?

     A rumor, heard tonight in Indianapolis, is that "Return Of The
Jedi" video tapes have been distributed to certain reviewers around
the country.

     And one is in Chicago...If anyone finds out any details, PLEAZZE
don't post them here.

     I want to viewthe tape or the movie innocently, at lest the first
time.

                             --arlan/indy

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 83 21:12:38-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxx!ignatz @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ

     Ok, guys...I heard one of the ultimate spoilers this Monday, when
a local newscaster on WLS FM in Chicago announced, as part of his 6:30
AM newscast, all of the salient plot kicks of RotJ!  I mean like soap
opera update time-- who did what to whom, when, why, and where.
Sheesh!

                              Dave Ihnat
                             ihuxx!Ignatz

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 83 15:43:01-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!!trw-unix!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ: ***SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!***

     (from the guy who doesn't want to read spoilers).  One of the
people here at TRW attended a screening Monday night.  He came back
with one of those fold-up lists of credits (it runs 6 pages).  The
last page is the cast of characters, which is reproduced below.

**** SPOILER WARNING! ****

     The list of characters includes at least one or two lines which
may be construed as giving away elements of the plot of the film
(although it's fairly ambiguous).  People who want to see the film
without anything given away ahead of time should skip to the next news
item.

                CAST

Luke Skywalker                  Mark Hamill
Han Solo                        Harrison Ford
Princess Leia                   Carrie Fisher
Lando Calrissian                Billy Dee Williams
See-Threepio(C-3PO)             Anthony Daniels
Chewbacca                       Peter Mayhew
Anakin Skywalker                Sebastian Shaw
Emperor                         Ian McDiarmid
Yoda                            Frank Oz
Darth Vader                     David Prowse
Voice of Darth Vader            James Earl Jones
Ben (Obi-Wan) Kenobi            Alec Guinness

                SUPPORTING CAST

Artoo-Detoo(R2-D2)              Kenny Baker
Moff Jerjerrod                  Michael Pennington
Admiral Piett                   Kenneth Colley
Bib Fortuna                     Michael Carter
Wedge                           Denis Lawson
Admiral Ackbar                  Tim Rose
General Madine                  Dermot Crowley
Mon Mothma                      Caroline Blakiston
Wicket                          Warwick Davis
Paploo                          Kenny Baker
Boba Fett                       Jeremy Bulloch
Oola                            Femi Taylor
Sy Snootles                     Annie Arbogast
Fat Dancer                      Claire Davenport
Teebo                           Jack Purvis
Logray                          Mike Edmonds
Chief Chirpa                    Jane Busby
Ewok Warrior                    Malcom Dixon
Ewok Warrior                    Mike Cottrell
Nicki                           Nicki Reade
Stardestroyer Controller #1     Adam Bareham
Stardestroyer Controller #2     Jonathan Oliver
Stardestroyer Captain #1        Pip Miller
Stardestroyer Captain #2        Tom Mannion
Jabba Puppeteers                Toby Philpott, Mike Edmonds,
                                David Barclay
Puppeteers                      Michael McCormick, Deep Roy,
                                Simon Williamson, Hugh Spirit,
                                Swim Lee, Michael Quinn,
                                Richard Robinson

     Offered without comment.

     There are also about 50 people in a list headed 'Ewoks'.  Only
one of them was familiar to me, Felix Silla (who played Cousin Itt in
the Addams Family TV show).

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 83 11:00:48-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!cca!linus!security!tfl (Tom Litant) @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ

     Warning: for those of you who don't want their suspense
unsuspended, avoid this week's TIME.  It gives almost all of the
details of RotJ.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 23-May-83 22:36:00
Date: 23 May 83 2228-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #10
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 May 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 10

Today's Topics:
        Books - Andre Norton (3 msgs) & John Varley (4 msgs),
                Television - Comments on "V" (2 msgs),
          More Books - Stanislaw Lem (2 msgs) & Jack Vance &
                      C.J. Cherryh & M.A. Foster

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 83 11:39:21-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Norton query

     This is to all those Andre Norton readers out there in Netland.
I read a lot of sf, but I've never gotten around to read this guy
(gal?).  Which are the "best" titles written by this author?

                            D. Bartholomew

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 83 8:40:54-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hao!cires!nbires!reb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Andre Norton

     Norton's "Witch World" series, particularly the first ones are
some of her best work.  They are more "mature" than most of her work
and have some interesting character development of the lead
characters.

     I think that most of these earlier "Witch World" books have been
recently reprinted, to they should be fairly easy to come by.

                               Roy Binz

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 83 9:50:20-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5b!hou5c!hou5e!rls@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Norton query

     Andre Norton (a woman) is one of my favorite authors.  I have
almost all of her books.  Some of the best of her Science Fiction
books are: "Star Rangers", "A Breed To Come", and the "Forerunner"
series.  She also writes fantasy; there are about twelve "Witch World"
books.  "Quag Keep" is a unique book - the characters are trapped in a
"Dungeons and Dragons" type game!  Two other science fiction books I
like are "Catseye" and "The Zero Stone".  I started reading Andre
Norton rather late because her books were not in the science fiction
section of the local library.  The children's librarian liked the
books so much that she kept them in the children's section so she
could read them!

                               Rosemary

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 83 22:36:05-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!pat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: John Varley - (nf)

     I've just finished reading a wonderful collection of short
stories by John Varley called "The Persistence of Vision".  Contains
some very bizarre but well written "speculative fiction" .

     My favorite was "Air Raid", where skyjackers from the future ...
... um, better read it for yourself .  If the copyright was
not  1977 I'd call it "Punk" S.F.  .

     In another story "In the Hall of the Martian Kings" nature
invents plastic wheels .

               Pat Kane, U of I, Urbana-Champaign, IL.

------------------------------

Date: 2 May 83 11:54:34-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!genrad!grkermit!earle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: John Varley - (nf)

     Another collection of John Varley's excellent short stories is
"The Barbie Murders", about a cult who submerge individual identity
through rigid conformism, including plastic surgery to make them all
look alike - but murders are occurring, and of course nobody can
identify the victims, or the murderer...  "The Persistence of Vision"
collection, especially the title story, is my favorite, though.

     His longer works include "Titan" and "Wizard", about humans in
contact with a living space habitat (They're more interesting than
this makes them sound.)  These two volumes cry out for a third - does
anybody know if/when it will be released?

     John Varley is an outstanding sf author of the type where "s" is
for science - but his characters are fully developed, powerful and
believable, and even his science gets advanced enough to look like
magic to me.  ("The Ophiuchi (sp?)  Hotline", another novel, is a good
example, as well as being good reading)

                           Earle T. Fettig
                          GenRad Concord, MA

------------------------------

Date: 11 May 83 2:54:37-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!linus!genrad!wjh12!mjl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Varley: TITAN, WIZARD, and...?

     I have heard a number of rumors that there is a third book in
Varley's "TITAN", "WIZARD" series.  The title I have heard is "DEMON"
-- sort of expected considering the last book.  I have heard nothing
about publication/release dates, however.

                            -- Matt Landau
                  (...decvax!genradbolton!wjh12!mjl)

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 83 14:54:52-PDT (Fri)
From: uw-beaver!tektronix!ucbcad!ucbmonet.kalash@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Varley: TITAN, WIZARD, and...? - (nf)

     The title is indeed "DEMON", but the publication date is a long
way away. He has spent the last year or so working on the movie script
for "Air Raid" a short story of his.

                                 Joe

------------------------------

Date: 8 May 83 20:54:01-PDT (Sun)
From: menlo70!sytek!zehntel!tektronix!ucbcad!ucbmonet.arnold@Ucb-Vax
Subject: V is for Verydumb - (nf)

     And let's not miss the most stupid thing of all.  They want
water?  There's more water in the rings of Saturn than on the Earth by
quite a long shot.  Add that to the fact that they wouldn't have to
get it out of a very deep gravity well, and that it comes nicely
packaged (in ice), and they don't have to go through the logistics of
conquest and occupation (both very expensive operations, especially
the later)...

     Asmiov even got this in the 50's ("The Martian Way").

                                 Ken

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 83 17:42:27 EDT  (Mon)
From: Craig Stanfill <craig.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: "V" Scientific inaccurracies

     If the Aliens in "V" have a sufficiently magical 'warp' drive (or
whatever) it might indeed be possible for them to take Earth's water
to their planet.  But that is a very poor solution, especially if they
just want the hydrogen; I'm sure we would be willing to sell them
(say) Euorpa for a very reasonable price; many of the outer moons
appear to be made of water/amonia ice, both of which are very good
sources of hydrogen.  And it is also absurd to suppose they would go
to the trouble to wipe out an entire sentient race just because they
think hairless apes taste better than cattle.

     I would hope that all this stuff about them wanting to eat people
is a red-herring, and that they really want to enslave us; enslaving
the population of a planet and forcing them to grow cattle would be
much more effective.

     Of course, they might be more devious: perhaps they are going to
eat part of the Earth's excess population, then enslave the remainder
and force them to grow cattle.  Or perhaps they will enslave everyone,
turn them into an industrial workforce, and eat the old and
unproductive workers.  And maybe they'll take some of our water, on
the theory that they need it anyway, its convenient to take it from
Earth, and doing this would lower the levels of the oceans and expose
more of the continental shelf for agriculture.

     But this would make too much sense.  The bright people at NBC
will probably never get past "The aliens eat people because they are
hungry."

------------------------------

Date: 4 May 83 11:13:01-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!sdcrdcf!mike@Ucb-Vax
Subject: LEM

     I haven't noticed any body commenting on Stanislaw Lem's
contributions to this genre, so I thought I'd ask.  Forgive any
duplications of effort.  One of my favorites is "Memoirs Found in a
Bathtub", which gives a wonderful account of a government employee
trapped in the last stronghold of the Federal bureaucracy after the
nuclear demise of America.  His mission, whether or not he decides to
accept it, is (among other things) to discover his mission, and carry
it out to it's conclusion.  As with many of Lem's books, it is
borderline SF, philisophical commentary, and quite engrossing.

     Anyone "out there" care to comment ?


                            Mike Williams
                         randvax!sdcrdcf!mike
                        trw-unix!sdcrdcf!mike
                        ucla-vax!sdcrdcf!mike
                         cbosgd!sdcrdcf!mike
                          ihnss!sdcrdcf!mike

------------------------------

Date: 9 May 83 23:07:56-PDT (Mon)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!feldman @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: LEM - (nf)

     I thank Doug Hofstadter (and/or his co-author for "Mind's I") for
turning me on to Lem, and I've grabbed everything I could find.  I
felt that "Memoirs Found in a Bathtub" and "The Investigation" to be
my least favorite Lem.  The machine fantasies, "The Cyberiad" and
"Mortal Engines" are by far my favorites.  I feel some of the credit
must go to Michael Kandel for translations that surely must preserve
the spirit of the wordplay (I can't comment on the Polish versions).
After these my favorites are the "Star Diaries" and "The Futurological
Congress".

------------------------------

Date: 7 May 83 22:30:19-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Jack Vance's LYONESSE

     This large (436pp), expensive ($6.95 in trade paperback) book is
the first volume of a series with the overall title of "LYONESSE".
(The actual title of this volume is "SULDRUN'S GARDEN"; I don't know
why Berkley couldn't have put this on the cover.) The blurbs and cover
painting might lead you to believe that the book is full of Gothic
mush, but my experience with Vance is that he has a reasonably low
tolerance for mush and while there is some silliness in the book it is
by and large outweighed by the usual dark and dry humor.

     The basic story is that the Elder Isles of Hy Brasil once lay off
the coast of France in the Bay of Biscay.  They existed for some time
up until the Middle Ages, after which they disappeared, for reasons
unexplained.  The isles are divided into several petty kingdoms which
struggle among each other to gain sway over the entire land, as once
was the case under King Olam of Lyonesse, long ago.  Lyonesse itself
is both a town and a country, and it is ruled by King Casmir, a
humorless and efficient man who seeks to gain control of the
governments of neighboring Dascinet, Troicinet and South Ulfland
through trickery or force.  The first part of the book follows the
childhood of Suldrun, daughter of Casmir.  This part is somewhat
depressing (and a bit slow, too) because Suldrun gets abuse from her
mother for being a girl instead of a son, from her father for not
being ready to marry any politically useful male who visits the
castle, and from her attendants because she is too independently
minded.  Eventually she embarrasses Casmir by refusing to be betrothed
to Faude Carfilhiot, lord of Tintzin Fyral Castle, and she is
imprisoned in an abandoned garden by the sea.  One day a barely
breathing body washes up and it turns out to be Aillas, the nephew of
the King of Troicinet.  The rest of the book is the story of Dhrun,
the son of Suldrun and Aillas who is brought up by the fairies, Aillas
and his search for Dhrun, and Shimrod the magician, who takes on Dhrun
as an apprentice and then loses him to Faude Carfilhiot, who uses the
boy as a hostage...  This complicated plot is nowhere near resolved by
the end of the book, so be prepared for the sequel.

     This is an enjoyable book although it drags a bit in a few
places; not perhaps as good as "THE DYING EARTH" but worth buying if
you like Vance.

Donn Seeley  UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF  ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
             (619) 452-4016             sdamos!donn@nprdc

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 1983 10:10-EST
From: Sharon E Perl <Sharon.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Request for info. on C.J. Cherryh

     Does anybody have any biographical information on C.J. Cherryh?
Is the author male or female? (I seem to remember someone using the
pronoun "she" in a book review.) I was quite impressed by the three
books that I read - "Downbelow Station", "Merchanter's Luck" and "Wave
Without a Shore". Unfortunately there are no background notes in the
books.

                             Sharon Perl
                      (Sharon.UPenn@UDel-Relay)

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 1983 11:33-EST
From: David Axler <Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: M. A. Foster Bibliographic Info.

     Nicholls' Science Fiction Encyclopedia has the following
bibliographic data on M(ichael) A(nthony) Foster: Born 1939; still
alive.  American writer, former data systems analyst and ICBM launch
crew commander for the American Air Force; he is also a
semi-professional photographer.  Only his first two books ("The
Gameplayers of Zan"; "The Warriors of Dawn") are discussed in the
entry; they're also discussed in the "Linguistics" entry, as being
major contributions.

              --Dave Axler (Axler.Upenn-1100@udel-relay)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Mail-From: KIESCHE@GREEN created at 23-May-83 23:33:34
Date: 23 May 83 2327-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #11
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 24 May 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 11

Today's Topics:
       Books - Arthur C. Clarke & Robert A. Heinlein (7 msgs) &
         Roger Zelazny and Samuel Delany & Alan Dean Foster &
                  Philip K. Dick and Thomas Disch &
                  Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle,
            Query - How to Introduce S.F. to the Beginner?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 83 22:34:38-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Review of 2010 (slight spoiler)

                          2010: Odyssey Two
                           Arthur C. Clarke
           Ballantine Books, New York, 1982     ($20Cdn)

     This is book has been discussed before, but here is my $.02
worth.  This is being jointly submitted to net.books & net.sf-lovers
as will future reviews.  Consider this a blanket apology to those
readers at news-sites where you have to see duplicate postings twice.
The lucky few with up-to-the-minute news programs will only see this
once.

     Clarke definately states that the book follows the movie closer
than the book for historical references.  I don't want to spoil too
much of the book for anyone who wants to read it, so I will only hit
on a few points.

     I found the book a disappointing experience.  There are a number
of scenes which seem to be written only as filler for the eventual
movie.  There is a whole episode with the Chinese (bad-guys, but
noble-savages who get their just desserts) that is absolutely without
merit in the book.  Clarke raise the suspense masterfully, then drops
it suddenly, completely, and in a very picturesque fashion.

     Another very carefully crafted sequence has us all worried about
the potential for trouble with a resurrected HAL 9000.  HAL (very
clearly not rot 1 on IBM) doesn't cause any trouble at all.  Another
episode which leaves the reader feeling cheated.  HAL's eventual
demise is rather interesting.

     HAL's creator is introduced but seems to be a very stereotyped,
two-dimensional character.  For that matter, most of the characters
lack any real depth.  The Russians are definately Russian, the Texan
is a real-Texan, the dedicated professor is a dedicated professor,
etc.  (Hint: SAL 9000, a near replica of HAL has absolutely nothing to
do with anything)

     And so it goes.  Jupiter, Io, Ganymede, etc. will be absolutely
lovely in the movie.  At least they had better be, given the space
used to describe them.

     By now you have probably guessed that I was not overly impressed
with 2010.  It was nice to see Clarke's idea of how things will turn
out.  The book will probably make a good movie.  The book definately
concludes the subject although I am sure there could be many more
books written in the same future.

     I would rate this book a 5.  It wasn't spell-binding, and the
characters lacked depth.  On the other hand, I have come to expect
similar from Clarke (with the exceptions of Rama and maybe one or two
others.)  It does conclude the story, and it is easy to read.  Borrow
this one or buy one of the 10 million paperback versions.  Or wait for
the movie.

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 83 20:03:14 EDT  (Thu)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: 70 and senility

     I realize that the message I'm replying to is over 3 months old,
but we just received January's sf-lovers. Anyway, about mm's message
about 'Heinlein is 70 and a prime candidate for senility'...  senility
is not a natural fact of getting old. It is a degenerative disease of
the brain caused by many different things, and in many cases can be
cured or at least delayed. Being old does not mean being senile. My
grandfather died when he was 92 and was not senile.

                                - rene

p.s. I hope we start getting sf-lovers regularly again.

p.p.s. I was going to put a significant comment here, but I forgot it.

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 83 11:27:41 EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Heinlein and "The Number of the Beast"

     Charles Camisa and several other correspondents to SF Lovers were
right about Heinlelin's being senile when writing TNOFB. Back in '79
he testified before a House subcommittee on the benefits of space
technology for the handicapped. Heinlein explained how he had suffered
from a major aneursym which was causing him to become progressively
senile, while writing this book. Though high-tech surgery eliminated
the aneursym, and reversed his progressive deterioration, it didn't
seem to be enough to help the book.

     "Friday" is better, but once again I wondered why I had read it
once I was done (a feeling I also get with Andre Norton).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 May 83 10:34 PDT
From: GMeredith.es@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Heinlein

     I agree with the critical remarks on Heinlein's works and made
similar comments in a previous SF-LOVERS Digest.

     Either he works best in the juvenile/young adult area or is
senile.  "The Number of the Beast" was published in part by--I
believe--Omni (that great outlet for authors' personal slushpiles) and
I was unable to finish even that because of the grossly overplayed
dialogue and incredible number of coincidences and happenstances.

     I would like to see something from Heinlein that would renew the
enthusiasm I felt as a young reader, but after "I Will Fear No Evil"
and "The Number of the Beast", I don't know that I am ready to try
"Friday".

                             Guy Meredith
                                Xerox
                              El Segundo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 May 83 15:45:29 EDT
From: David Miller <Miller@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Number of the Beast

     The difficulty most people had understanding "Number of the
Beast" can be explained very simply: The version you all read had 200
pages cut out of it. Get a copy of the book that was printed in the
U.K.  you'll find many of the confusions (but not all) explained in
the missing text.  Unfortunately you'll also find more of those
unending quadrologues.

                                -Dave

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1983 15:17:19 EST (Tuesday)
From: Daemon <daemon@OKC-UNIX>
Subject: Heinlein

     The spate of letter on Heinlein in Vol 7 No 3 reminded me of the
old tale about the blind men and the elephant.

     First, on NotB - I enjoyed it, even on rereading it; but that's
just a matter of taste. To answer the question that started this, the
last chapter of NotB is a Science Fiction Convention - one I would
dearly love to attend.

     On Heinlein and sex - one of the first sf novels published to
openly consider sex was "Stranger in a Strange Land," back in 1961.
Note that this is the same year that "The Lovers" (written in '52, I
believe) and "Venus Plus X" were published. As a whole, Heinlein's
views on sex are more liberal than most everybody else writing sf.
The only exceptions I can think of are Varley & Ellison. Nothing
kinky, unless you consider chastity & fidelity to be the natural state
of things.

     As for Judith's complaint about the sexism shown in RAH's older
books, I have two questions. First, does any book that disagrees with
your ideas automatically qualify as bad (and do you burn them)?
Second, do you always assume that an author holds the views expressed
by his characters? If so, then you are going to have a hard time
explaining RAH, unless you assume that he's a consortium of writers.
For instance, who is elected as the permanent captain of the Gay
Deceiver? I'll give you a hint: She was the older woman.

     For a long, thorough discussion of Heinleins faults, see `RAH RAH
R.A.H' in "Time Travelers Strictly Cash."

                                <mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 May 1983  20:26 EDT
From: SJOBRG.ANDY%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC
Subject: Number of the Beast, 2010

"Number of the Beast" sucked raw bugs. It was overly trite and
downright silly. I like old Heinlien, but NOTB grated on my nerves.

     2010 is the best book of the year (I haven't read "Friday," so I
guess I should). Much better than "Foundation's Edge". The people are
real and the storyline is cosmic (no pun intended). Go out and read
it.
                                -andy

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 83 06:10:58 EDT  (Tue)
From: Chris Torek <chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re:  Male chauvanism in Heinlein

     I think I found the phrase someone misquoted as "She was
terrific.  She was almost as good as a man."  In "Starman Jones", p.
210 in my edition, Max Jones tells Ellie Coburn (in reference to 3-D
chess): "You know, Ellie, you play this game awfully well--for a
girl".  Now, before you jump up and shout "Aha!", look a bit further.
It turns out she's "junior champion of Hespera".  If you believe in
the old saying ``actions speak louder than words'', you have to agree
that Heinlein wasn't being sexist there.

     Remember, this stuff was written in 1953.  While I wasn't even
born yet, I've been given to understand that the general attitude at
this time was (shall we say) unfavorable toward women.  So, while I
agree with whoever it was that Heinlein's stories seem predisposed
toward men, I won't fault him (RAH) for it.  At least it's subdued.

                               - Chris

------------------------------

Date: 12 May 1983 11:03-EST
From: David Axler <Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Zelazny and Delany

     Several entries on Roger Zelazny have mentioned his excellent
short story, "For A Breath I Tarry", while others have noted Chip
Delany's comments on Roger's work.  One other thing of interest here
is Delany's story "We, in Some Strange Power's Employ, Move on a
Rigorous Line" (in the "Driftglass" collection; also in the "Distant
Stars" collection), which is dedicated to Zelazny and has some
(intentional, I assume) parallels with the Zelazny story.

            --Dave Axler <axler@upenn or axler@upenn-1100>

------------------------------

Date: 17 May 83 06:29:24 EDT  (Tue)
From: Chris Torek <chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: For Love of Mother-Not

**** SPOILER WARNING **** SPOILER WARNING **** SPOILER WARNING ****

     I recently finished re-reading "For Love of Mother-Not" by Alan
Dean Foster, and I'm pleased to say that I found it "non-borin'" (to
borrow a description from "Orphan Star").  I have a bone to pick,
though: on page 38, Cruachan says, "I have half a volume of
information to process from the Cannachanna system, ...."  Now, what's
he doing with information from a system in the Blight?  Cannachanna
was (is? will be?) the Hur'rikku system where the anti-collapsar
device was found in "The End of the Matter".  Recall Ab's
"Cannachanna, banarana, lemon pie and apple vana.  What ticks inside
the helical mix?" ("The End of the Matter", p. 194).  Other than this,
I found no outright contradictions with the other four stories (though
I still find it hard to think of Mother Mastiff as being Scottish).

     Now, a question: does anyone know whether "Bloodhype" comes
before or after "The End of the Matter"?  I don't recall any
sequencing information in "Bloodhype" except Flinx's ship "Teacher"
(which proves that the story follows "Orphan Star").

                               - Chris

------------------------------

Date: 18 May 83 13:19 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Shipper.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Dick/Disch

     I will put in my vote for Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric
Sheep?" and "The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch."  There are some
subtle comments on human-ness in these stories, as well as unique
plot.  "VALIS" was also interesting, although it left me thinking "is
he serious, or what", and, from interviews I have read, he maintains
that many of the incidents in the book really happened.  But was he
putting us on?  Or is that the theme of the story?

     For Disch I also liked "Camp Concentration" and, especially, "The
Prisoner."  The book is not the series, sure, but a literary
extrapolition of the themes of trust, reality, and, to an extent,
existentialism.  Great reading.  The short story collection, "Fun With
Your New Head" is also quite good, and includes the classic
"Descending."

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 83 1:22:34-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!cca!linus!genrad!grkermit!marks @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Astrogeography and "MOTE IN GODS EYE"

     The latest National Geographic has a three dimensional picture of
the "Orion Arm" that the sun's in the middle of. Looking at it I
noticed that the Coalsack is shown as on the inner edge of the arm,
seperated from the Sagittarius Arm by a wide rift. Does anyone know
how accurate this is?

     The point, of course, is that in "MOTE IN GODS EYE" New Caledonia
system, about 50 parsecs beyond the Coalsack, is the capital of the
rich and thriving "Trans Coalsack Sector". If the Coalsack really is
one edge of the Orion Arm there wouldn't seem to be much room for
expansion out there.

     (Hmmm: Verne could play with the moon, Heinlein with Venus.
Various people with most of the other planets and all of the stories
now known to be semi-fantasies, set in a universe that isn't the one
we know.  If even the Trans Coalsack's not safe, where can one set
space opera? (How long till SKYLARK DUQUESNE's refuted? (Chuckle.)))
(This comment provided by LISP-lovers.)

                             Mark Swanson
                        genrad!grkermit!marks

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 83 21:49:54-PDT (Fri)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!marick @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Bibliography for the novice - (nf)

     Every once in a while, someone who has never read SF before asks
me for a recommendation.  That's a problem.  SF is an incredibly
self-referential field.  It's much like those old English poets who
all knew their Homer and Virgil and simply assumed their readers did
as well.  Something like "Ringworld" presupposes familiarity with
standard SF ideas -- hyperspace and so on.

     So what I'd like to do is compile a list of books that have been
successfully recommended to novice SF readers.  No fair naming
something that you think would work; it has to be something that
actually has a track record.

     I'm asking this question in various places; I'll summarize if I
get anything worthwhile.

                             Brian Marick
                ...decvax!pur-ee!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!marick
                          Marick@COMPION-VMS

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 83 2159-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #13
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 May 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 13

Today's Topics:

       Books - SKYRIPOFF! & Glen Cook and Keith Laumer (2 msgs) &
                             R.A. MacAvoy
 General Stuff - Computer S.F. & Information Request & Help Wanted &
                     S.F. Book-Club & S.F. on VHS
                      Magazine Articles - Robots
New Readers - Bibliography for New Readers (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 83 21:13:04-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SKYRIPOFF!

                       *****RIPOFF ALERT******

     The heavily-promoted, silver-covered, spaceship-bedecked book by
Tor, "SKYRIPPER", is NOT SF!

     True, the first few pages and the LAST PARAGRAPH have SF elements
in them, but the rest (99+%) is just a standard
secret-agent-turned-cynic/ cum fairly nice guy adventure story.  Not
too bad for its type, but NOT what you'd expect of a book touted as
SF.  I admit that it held my interest, but part of that was waiting
for the SF to begin.

     Buy it at a book sale for $.25 and read it when you are
desparate.

                         --arlan andrews/indy

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 83 22:21:00-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!stuart @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Two opinions

       Glen Cook's "Dread Empire" epic in three volumes. Highly
recommended. Not just another swords and sorcery trilogy.  Lots of
depth to the good guys and bad guys even when they really are good
guys and bad guys. Came out a couple of years ago and I have read it
at least 4 times. I don't do that very often as I have at least 600
paperbacks to keep me busy. Spans several hundred years with
tantalizing glimpses of millenia.  Characters are well motivated.
Conflict is many-sided, not black and white. Despite the magic and
"unreal" features, much attention is given in a natural (well written)
way to the mundane aspects of life. (Timing a campaign to get the
crops planted, political infighting among the leaders of both major
alliances, etc.)

       Keith Laumer's "Star Colony". Don't bother! If Laumer's name
wasn't a drawing card, his publisher wouldn't have bought it (I
HOPE!). A pastiche with lots of one-dimensional characters.
Disjointed. Entire crucial races of beings are used for an effect and
forgotten later even though they are still around.  Might have made
space opera if the writing were better. I don't ping on sf or fantasy
often but this one is a loser.

                            Stu Friedberg
                  {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart
                           stuart@rochester
                       friedberg.wbst@parc-maxc

------------------------------

Date: 20 May 83 15:57:31-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!we13!otuxa!ll1!sb1!burl!duke!mcnc!rti!will @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Star Colony

     I agree; "Star Colony" is trash. What happened to Laumer? His
other works (both novels and short stories) are so good!

                           William Gwaltney
                            mcnc!rti!will

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 1983 20:57:35 EDT (Friday)
From: Dave Mankins <dm@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Good Book

            ``Tea with the Black Dragon'' by R.A. MacAvoy

     Normally, I don't buy books with dragons on the covers (well, Aho
and Ullman is an exception), but something about this book caught my
eye.  This book is part computer-crime mystery, part fantasy, and part
meditation.

     Margaret MacNamara is a practitioner of Zen, a fiddler in an
Irish band, and all around neat person.  Her daughter, a systems
analyst/consultant, calls her to say she is in trouble and needs to
talk to her, sends her a first-class ticket to San Francisco, reserves
a room for her in an expensive hotel, and disappears.

     Margaret MacNamara, staying at the hotel, is introduced to a
mysterious man named Wayland Long who lives at the hotel in a
book-filled room, tells her first-hand stories of Irish Fairies,
Buddhist monks, and is said to have once been a black Imperial Dragon
from China.  Long resolves to help her find her daughter, because he
recognizes in her the Master he has come to America seeking.

     While the computerese ("A language is a language") seems forced
the first time it appears, I really enjoyed the book, and found
particularly thought-provoking what it has to say about "wizards" and
truth.

    ``Most programmers have the ambition to be real
      experts--wizards.''

    ``How odd that they should use the word, `wizard','' said
      Wayland, ``Most of the wizards in my experience were mostly
      flummery.''

     Hmm....  We see three demonstrations of this latter kind of
wizardry in the book.  For example, when two of the heroes need to get
into an office-building late at night, one of them (your basic hacker)
walks up to the Mexican security guard and, when stopped, explains,
``We've got to BOOT the system, man!  This is important!  Have you
ever seen a computer crash?  It's a terrible sight, man!  All over the
floor!  It'll cost Rasmussen a fortune if we don't get that machine
back up!'' And intimidates the guard into letting him into the
building--through "flummery".

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 83 16:53:36-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!arlan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Computer-related SF sale to Analog

     I just sold another computer-related short story to Analog,
entitled "Critical Path".  No scheduled date yet; sent in the galley
proofs for "Information Implosion" last month.

     Would appreciate comments on these and prior ones, entitled
"Technolorata", "Science, Fiction", "Glossolalia" in ASF over the last
year (assuming anyone read them).

     (Did ANYONE read the short in Infoworld last March, "Keeping the
OCTOPUS at Arm's Length"? (Their title) )

     Are there other SFWA'ers out there?

                  --arlan andrews/american bell/indy

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 83 22:50:29-PDT (Mon)
From: uw-beaver!tektronix!ucbcad!ucbmonet.arnold@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Plate Knowledge - (nf)

     Normally, I don't indulge in license plate jokes, but I thought
that sf-lovers would appreciate this.  Seen on the back of a VW
Rabbit.

     GROK 42

                                 Ken

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 1983 1642-PDT
From: FORWARD@USC-ECL
Subject: Help Needed

     I'm looking for someone with access to a CAD machine to make a
drawing of the multi-recursive robot used in "ROCHEWORLD".  (The robot
has six appendages, [at the end of which are six appendages one third
the scale]**19, til the last set which are microscopic cilia.)
Obviously the drawing can't go that many stages.  Pocket
Books/Timescape will print the technical appendix with drawings in the
book version of novel and it would be nice to see what the Christmas
Bush looks like.  Reply to RLFORWARD@USC-ECL.

                             Bob Forward

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 1983 2127-CDT
From: Douglas Good <CMP.DOUG@UTEXAS-20>
Subject: Book-Club

     I am considering joining The Science Fiction Book Club and would
like to know whether or not it is worth while.

                                -Doug

------------------------------

Date: Fri 27 May 83 12:44:26-PDT
From: Mike Achenbach <ACHENBACH@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: SF on VHS

     Does anyone out there (Lauren?) know how to find out what titles
are available on VHS format video tapes?  The best I've come up with
so far is the SF selection in a video club around here.  They claim
that they'll order any tape you request, so I'm curious to find out
just what's available.  What I'm looking for is something exhastive,
like Books in Print.

                                /Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sunday, 29 May 1983 00:34-PDT
Subject: Design quarterly
From: greep@SU-DSN

     The current issue of Design Quarterly is all about robots, in
fact and in fiction.  It has some pictures pictures of famous movie
robots such as Gort and Robbie.

                               - greep

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 1983 17:28-EST
From: David Axler <Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Bibliography for New Readers

     Brian Marick asks what people recommend for the novice SF reader.
I find that there are three books I keep handy for such situations.
The first two are the pair of "Reader's Guides" (one "to SF", the
other "to Fantasy") produced by Baird Searles and his colleagues.
[NB: Baird, in addition to being a reviewer for F&FS, runs a sf
bookstore in NYC, and is very knowledgeable] Usually, a novice will
say something along the lines of, "I just read [...] and liked/hated
it.  What do you recommend instead?"  These two guides (both in paper)
actually have sections on 'If you like x, try y', and come in quite
handy.

     The third book I keep around (one copy in my office, for filling
in answers to sf-lovers questions; one at home for myself) is Peter
Nicholls' "Science Fiction Encyclopedia".  It's a few years out of
date, but it's great for getting lists of all an author's books,
bibliographic data, and also contains some very well-organized
articles with lots of references on themes in sf and fantasy.  The
latter is quite handy when a friend asks for "time-travel" stories, or
the like.

     Another thing I've been doing for about the last 18 months is
keeping a log of all my reading (novels only at present), with some
ratings, so I can keep track of what's new and good.  It also comes in
handy when it's Hugo time.

                       Dave Axler <axler@upenn>

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 83 9:40:15-PST (Fri)
From: Rick Tyler <tyler.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Novice bibliography

     When I give advice to novice SF fans, I tend to recommend the
best of the stories from the golden age.  These stories are no longer
considered as daring as some of the "new-wave" SF (quick, define that
term for me!), but are generally more accessible and make a better
read.  Obviously the choices below would be adjusted according to
perceived intellectual ability, maturity and interests of the novice,
but these would make a good introduction to the field for a reasonably
bright person who does not have a jaded personality.

     1.  "The Foundation Trilogy" -- Good, hard-core socioeconomic SF.
Combines enough action, mystery, space, and (psudeo-) science to give
a 800 page overview to a major portion of the field.  Asimov's
descriptions of the more "science-fictiony" events in the story seem
to reach even the occasional recluse who has not seen "Star Wars,"
"Star Trek," "Battlestar (may I be forgiven for mentioning it)
Galactica," "Lost in (forgive me again) Space," etc.  Besides, it is a
great story.

     2.  "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame" -- Especially the first
volume.  An overview of the best shorter science fiction works, and
every one a clear-cut jewel.  Introduces many of the most common
themes in SF, and provides historical perspective (from "A Martian
Odyssey" to "The Roads Must Roll" to "The Big Front Yard" -- quite a
range of stories and trends in science fiction).

     3.  "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" -- Heinlein's best novel
(yeah, it is too!), and therefore required reading.  Why is it good
for a novice?  The strange grammar is educational in itself (see -- SF
plays with \lots/ of ideas) and it is a riveting aventure story.

     4.  Any Heinlein juvenile (but especially "Citizen of the Galaxy"
or "Tunnel in the Sky") for young readers (for an SF fan this would
mean 12 or less.  Most people seem to get to Harlan Ellison by age
16).  The juveniles are interesting to adults too, but are not
captivating enough to "hook" most mature people.  If proselytyzing is
our goal, give kids the Heinlein juveniles, but not the adults.

     Others that have worked for me, but without comment:

     5.  "Childhood's End", Arthur C. Clarke
     6.  "Rendevous With Rama", A.C.C.
     7.  "Tactics of Mistake", Gordon Dickson (if your novice is a
war-buff)

     In essence, though, the best science fiction story to give a
novice is one that he/she will \read/ and enjoy.  My first was "The
Proud Robot" by Henry Kuttner, certainly not one I would suggest, and
my wife started with a Ben Bova novel.  Match the best story in your
collection to the person to whom you are loaning or giving the
book/story, and stand back and watch.  Worry less about the person
understanding the references than about the quality of the tale.  Most
SF can be enjoyed from outside the "ghetto" as well as inside, and it
is little trouble to find good SF that is also easily understood by
the unwashed masses.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 83 2219-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #14
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 May 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:

      Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler - THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (7 msgs)
     
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 May 1983 1612-PDT
Subject: RotJ (not really a spoiler)
From: Alan R. Katz <KATZ@USC-ISIF>

     Just saw Jedi this morning, and it was pretty good.  However, the
cute furry creatures were a direct steal from H. Beam Piper's Little
Fuzzies! (Great Books to read, by the way)

     Also, I would say the movie required a much greater willfull
suspension of belief than even the other Star Wars movies.  Still alot
of fun to watch, though.

                         Alan (Katz@usc-isif)

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 1983 22:43 mst
From: Lippard.DSOP at SYSTEM-M.PHOENIX.HONEYWELL (James J. Lippard)
Subject: Return of the Jedi

     I saw a special premiere of this movie tonight, and I was
disappointed.  It seems with the success of E.T. they decided to make
it as cute as they could, by introducing the furry little Ewoks.  A
lot of the special effects left a lot to be desired as well.  The
cycle speeders were sped up far too much to be realistic, and a lot of
matte shots were too obviously phony (notably the desert sail barge
scenes).  There was an overabundance of muppets, and I was horrified
at Jabba the Hutt's entertainment--an alien with a long snout (wearing
lipstick) singing.  Jabba's little pet, Sy Snootles (what kind of a
stupid name is that?), reminded me of Wile E. Coyote.  The ending of
this trilogy does not make it worthwhile, this is by far the worst of
the Star Wars films.

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 1983 22:45 mst
From: Lippard.DSOP at SYSTEM-M.PHOENIX.HONEYWELL (James J. Lippard)
Subject: Re: Return of the Jedi

     One other thing I forgot to mention that was pretty bad was the
way the Ewoks thought C-3PO was a god--reminiscent of "Gilligan's
Island". "E.T.  meets the muppets" describes this movie fairly well.

------------------------------

Date: Thu 26 May 83 09:59:59-PDT
From: Michael First <FIRST@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA>
Subject: ROTJ

     1) SF-LOVERS was RIGHT!!  Back about 2 years ago, a super spoiler
message appeared on SF-LOVERS from someone who claimed that a friend
who worked at Lucasfilm got to see the script for RotJ, and leaked
that Leia and Luke wre in fact siblings!

     2) I enjoyed the film but I was somewhat disappointed about
several aspects.  I claim that of the 3 films, ESB was the most
innovative and exciting.  RotJ was very much a rehash of ESB with
respect to ideas and technique.  It seemed that there were very few
novel sets (in fact, most of the sets seemed to be leftovers from the
previous two films), few new gadgets, and very little new pure Sci-Fi
ideas.  The only "new" things were the creatures which were done at
least as imaginatively in "Dark Crystal".  The battle scenes also were
very similar to those in the previous films.  In fact, the primary
interesting thing was the plot development, which was foreshadowed in
ESB.  With the exception of the major plot points concerning Darth and
Luke, there was little else suspenseful in RotJ--everything else was
extremely predicatable--i.e. the Death Star really being fully
operational, etc.

     3) The direction in this film was also lacking; battle scenes
seems overly confused on the screen, and an inordinate amount of time
was spent showing the muppets dancing.

     4) Finally,it seems unlikely that Darth could have killed the
emperor with such ease.  I mean, this guy is supposed to be the most
powerful user of the Dark Side, and Darth just tossed him down the
shaft to his death.  It is always disappointing to suspend one's
disbelief for the magic of a story only to have the plot resolved in
such an unsatisfying way.

     5) Well, I still enjoyed the film but I don't find myself caring
very much when SW part I hits the screen.

                     --Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 83 10:29:51 PDT (Thursday)
From: Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Shortest possible spoiler for RotJ?

     The Emperor is killed by Luke's father to save his children.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 83 15:05:23 PDT (Friday)
From: Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: RotJ question - non-spoiler.

     In the scene where Leia first meets the Ewok, and gives it some
food, did it say "esteefee", or did my ears deceive me?

                              Pappy Jef

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 83 17:06:34-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!norskog @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ (not really a spoiler) - (nf)

     No, the little teddy bears are not steals from "Little Fuzzy",
they are much more from "Earthman's Burden" by Gordon Dickson & Poul
Anderson.  (A much better story than either Fuzzy or rotj!)

     In clarification of that last remark, I will only say that white
teenagers pay Hollywood's bills, and thay they would choke on anything
morally complex.

                            Lance Norskog
                           Fortune Systems
                       megatest!fortune!norskog
                         hpda!fortune!norskog
                              harpo!...
                             sri-unix!...
                              amd70!...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 31 May 83 2304-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #15
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 31 May 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 15

Today's Topics:

    Books - C.J. Cherryh (3 msgs) & Andre Norton & GOR (2 msgs) &
                        Douglas Adams (3 msgs), 
               Television - Wizards and Warriors & "V"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 May 1983 13:20:48-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: info on C. J. Cherryh

     Caroline Janice (?) Cherryh is a former schoolteacher from the
Oklahoma City area. For a teacher in a public school in the South she
was extraordinarily lucky as virtually everything she taught was an
elective (e.g. Latin, anthropology). She also coached fencing. I've
been fortunate enough to have a couple of long conversations with her
and found her a fascinating individual (which is what you'd expect
from her books---it takes something special to make the weirder aliens
both strange and sympathetic). She is well-loved throughout fandom
(again unsurprising)---you should have heard the roar of approval when
it was announced at Chicon that she'd won the Hugo for Best Novel (for
"DOWNBELOW STATION").

     Technical note: at Philcon last January she described how all of
her work except the short stories and the borderline fantasies ("WAVE
WITHOUT A SHORE", "The Book of Morgaine") fits into a common universe
in which "DOWNBELOW STATION" is one of the earliest stories---she's
worked out a lot of the astrography involved with the aid of a 3-D
lucite star chart. With luck this will be published somewhere.

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 1983 11:30-EST
From: David Axler <Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: C. J. Cherryh Info.

     Biographic info from the Nicholls' encyclopedia: "The spelling of
her name American writer and teacher Carolyn Janice Cherry (1942--)
uses for her fiction, beginning with her first novel, "Gate of Ivrel"
(1976), an unusually striking and sensitive heroic-fantasy quest
story; a sequel is projected [[It's actually a trilogy, and is
available from the SFBookClub in a one-vol.  edition titled "The Book
of Morgaine"]].  Her second novel, "Brothers of Earth" (1976)
epitomizes her considerable virtues as a writer of romantically
conceived but gravely paced adventures, in this case the deep conflict
between two humans stranded (during the course of a 1000-year war
between their widely spread factions) on a humanoid planet.  The
humanoid culture is complexly envisioned, the two humans are rendered
with some irony, and it is a sign both of this writer's relative
maturity and of the way the times have changed that it is the
destruction (rather than the use) of an ancient, powerful cache of
human weapons that is seen as redemptive.  CJC has a BA in Latin and
an MA from Johns Hopkins in classics.  Other works: "Hunter of Worlds"
(1977).

     That's a bit out-of-date, so let me fill in some more from my own
files.  At present, CJC has eighteen books out, almost all of which
have been published by DAW and/or the SFBookClub.  Aside from those
mentioned above, there is the "Faded Sun" trilogy, a fantasy entitled
"Ealdwold" (available in a small- press limited edition w/illustration
by her brother, David Cherry, and as a part of a recent DAW volume
entitled "The Dreamstone"), a collection of linked shorts titled
"Sunfall", and several recent novels all set in the same universe,
including "Downbelow Station" (last year's Hugo winner), "Port
Eternity", and "Merchanter's Luck".

     To my mind, Cherryh's greatest skill is in depicting alien
civilizations as they are perceived (and, often, misunderstood) by
human observers.  In this, she is occasionally reminiscent of Jack
Vance, but without the latter's use of all-human civilizations.  This
skill is best displayed in the "Faded Sun" books, in "Brothers of
Earth", and in her most recent books.

     Overall, she's a good writer who, thanks to last year's award, is
now beginning to receive more attention from the reading public.  If I
remember right, another new book, "The Pride of Chanur", is up for a
Hugo this year, and has a reasonable chance of making it.

                             --Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 1983 20:52 EDT
From: art@mit-dms
Subject: Cherryh info, not bio

     Another book of C.J. Cherryh worth reading is" Brothers of
Earth".  He or she also has a series that starts with "Kesrith: The
Faded Sun".  This series all have Kesrith: in their titles but I can't
remember their names.  If you have read them please tell me if you
think the series is worth reading (I like Cherryh but I can't afford
to buy books to find out for myself).

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 1983 11:45-EST
From: David Axler <Axler.UPenn@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Andre Norton Info.

     Andre Norton is an author whose books are, for many people, among
the first sf or fantasy works ever encountered.  This is because her
entry into the sf field was through the writing of juvenile fiction,
which, in turn, has lead many librarians who know her name to
automatically categorize all her writing as such; this attitude has
also occurred in the marketing of much of her work.  Despite her
prolific output, she has been pretty much ignored by sf fans; as far
as I can recall, she's yet to receive a Hugo nomination.

     Her entry in the Nicholls' encyclopedia is huge -- over three
columns.  I'll paraphrase the highlights here:

     Andre Norton is the writing name of Alice Mary Norton (1912--),
who has recently [[ca. 1977]] become Andre Alice Norton.  A librarian
for 20 years before turning to full time writing .... Though much of
her work is fully as adult in theme and telling as almost all general
sf, she has been primarily marketed as a writer for children and
adolescents.  Beginning to publish in the 1930s, she soon produced an
espionage trilogy...; she came to sf proper in 1947 with "The People
of the Crater", as Andrew North, a pseudonym she also used for three
novels.

     AN has consistently demonstrated a preference for novel-length
fictions, and for the establishing of links among her numerous books;
indeed, most of her novels make use (though sometimes rather casually)
of a common background and common vocabulary whose general effect is
to place into a broadly conceived galactic venue a wide variety of
tales, some space opera, some comparatively intimate studies of men,
aliens, and beasts and their relation- ships under various
circumstances. . . . Though shared assumptions and a shared galaxy do
not make a series, many of the novels are more closely linked.

     "Dane Thorson" series: "Sargasso of Space" ('55); "Plague Ship"
('56); "Voodoo Planet" ('59); "Postmarked the Stars" ('69)

     "Blake Walker" series: "The Crossroads of Time" ('56); "Quest
Crosstime" ('65)

     "Ross Murdock" series: "The Time Traders" ('58); "Galactic
Derelict" ('59); "The Defiant Agents" ('62); "Key Out of Time" ('63)

     "Astra" series: "The Stars are Ours!" ('54); "Star Born" ('57)

     "Hosteen Storm" series: "The Beast Master" ('59); "Lord of
Thunder" ('62)

     "Lantee" series: "Storm over Warlock" ('60); "Ordeal in
Otherwhere" ('64); "Forerunner Foray" ('73)

     "Janus" series: "Judgement on Janus" ('63); "Victory on Janus"
('66)

     "Witch World" series: [[**FANTASY; NOT SET IN THE SHARED
BACKGROUND]]: "Witch World" ('63); "Web of the Witch World" ('64);
"Year of the Unicorn" ('65); "Three Against the Witch World" ('67);
"Sorceress of the Witch World" ('68); "Spell of the Witch World"
(shorts coll'n, '72); "The Crystal Gryphon" ('72); "The Jargoon Pard"
('72); "Trey of Swords" ('78).  The first seven volumes are available
in a Gregg Press (acid-free paper, sewn bindings, etc.) edition with
introductions, maps, essays, etc.

     "Moon Singer" series: "Moon of Three Rings" ('66); "Exiles of the
Stars" ('71)

   "Murdoc Jern" series:  The Zero Stone ('68); Uncharted Stars ('69)

     [[Another series not noted in Nicholls is the "Magic" series, in
which all the titles end with the word 'magic': "Steel Magic" ('65);
"Fur Magic" ('68); "Dragon Magic" ('72); "Lavender-Green Magic" ('74);
"Red Hart Magic" ('76).  These are a series in that they share some
basic conceptual approaches, but don't have interlocking plots.]]

     Though her style has matured over the years, and her plots have
tended to darken somewhat, from first to last an AN story will show
virtues of clear construction, a high degree of narrative control,
protagonists whose qualities allow easy reader identification, and a
universe (whose availability to Man is described in space-opera terms
and represented by the familiarity of the shared backgrounds) which is
fundamentally responsive to virtue, good will, and spunk.  [[All of
which are characteristics beloved by children's librarians, one might
note.]]  The large number of books published [[Nicholls shows another
25, besides those already listed, and that's only up to '77]], the
fact that she has not been inclined to publish material in the sf
magazines, and the label of juvenile writer she has borne, have all
worked to restrict AN's impact within the sf genre, though her actual
sales are very considerable.  Though she is not innovative with regard
to ideas, she is all the same a prolific craftsman whose relative
critical neglect is regrettable.

     [[Fantasy gameplayers, by the way, should note her novel "Quag
Keep", which is actually a novelization of a section of a D&D campaign
in Gary Gygax's "Greyhawk" (tm) world.]]

                             --Dave Axler

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 83 8:59:59-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihuxf!neff @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Who reads the GOR books and WHY?

     At a bookstore recently, I noticed a new "GOR" book by John
Norman and was again struck with the thought, "Who reads this stuff?"
I will to admit to having read the first couple of "GOR" books (they
were reasonably good adventure stories and I was willing to ignore his
sexism for the moment) but about half way through the third I got so
disgusted with his treatment of women that I ended up throwing the
book across the room and never finishing it.  As a game, I will
sometimes pick up one of his books in a bookstore and randomly pick
pages from it to see how long it takes me to find a page that does not
ooze with a hatred of women.  Sometimes I have to give up my search.
The "GOR" books say not just that women should be subservient to men
but that women are happier in such a position.  Quote from one of his
books:

     "In her heart every woman wants to wear the chains of a man."

     The fact that a sick mind is out there producing this trash does
not bother me as much as the fact that, since these books are
apparently quite successful, there must be thousands of similarly ill
people who agree with his views on women.

     Are there any people on the net who are "GOR" fans who would be
willing to come forward and attempt to defend Norman's books?

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 83 22:37:25-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!uiucdcs!akhtar @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Who reads the GOR books and WHY? - (nf)

     Well, for the curious..

     I read some of the "GOR" books many years ago...about 10yrs ago I
think I read the 1st 3 I believe, and found the 1st one moderately
readable, standard adventure type stuff. I found them getting rapidly
worse, in terms of readability and plot. Macrogenerated is the term I
would normally apply such material.

     Since then I've not had the slightest inclination to go and read
any more.

     I don't recall any really blatant sexist comments... but it has
been such a long time. I do remember the women were always subordinate
to the men one way or the other.

                            uiucdcs!akhtar

------------------------------

Date: 19 May 83 03:46:14 EDT (Thu)
From: !!idis!mi-cec!rwg@Berkeley
Subject: another "42" theory

     A co-worker here claims that 42 is what you get when you spell
out "Life, the Universe, and Everything" on a Scrabble board, though I
have not yet checked that out.

                 Rich Getlak, decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg

P.S.,

Since I am about to lose my access to the USENET, this is probably the
best place to say

        "So long, and thanks for all the fish!"

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 1983 1017-EDT
From: Eric M. Ostrom <ERIC at MIT-EECS>
Subject: Hitchhikers Guide.

     Dent, Arthur (d 1607) English Puritan Leader.  Wrote "The Plain
Man's Path-way to Heaven".  Strongly influenced John Bunyan, author of
"The Pilgrim's Progress".  Just thought y'all might like to know...

                                 Eric

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 83 17:11:36-PDT (Wed)
From: allegra!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!presley @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: another "42" theory

        With squares which multiply word and letter scores, you
        can't get down to 42 points even using both blank pieces.
        We couldn't even find a way to make 56, which is 6x9 (equal
        4x13+2, or 42 base 13).  Sorry.

And all these years, I was under the misconception that 6x9 is 54.

        Joe Presley (...!mhuxj!presley)

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 1983 01:45 EDT
From: Barry D. Gold <BARRYG @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Wizards and Warriors

     W&W was a TV show brought in as a spring replacement.  It was
vaguely reminiscent of a fantasy role playing campaign.  It started
out poorly but improved.  Alas it is now dead - not to be renewed.

     Lee Gold, editor of the Role-playing magazine "Alarums and
Excursions" and designer of "Land of the Rising Sun" (Fantasy Games
Unlimited, 1980) and "Lands of Adventure" (FGU, due out this July),
has spun a plot outline continuing the series at least another 8
shows.  She doesn't think anyone's interested though, so refuses to
write it down.  If you are interested, please let me know so I can
nudge her.

     If you loved the show, you might also write CBS Programming at:

                          6121 Sunset Blvd.
                         Hollywood, CA 90028

and tell them you miss it.

     (NO, Lee is not connected with the show in any way.  She just has
a mind almost as devious as Vector's.  Must come from watching shows
by Art (Spare Them Nothing) Wallace.

     You can try reaching me at
"decvax!trw-unix!sdcrdcf!barryg@ucb-vax" or here at MC.  I'll see mail
at sdcrdcf sooner, but Berkeley has a habit of munging UUCP mail, so
ARPANET is a little surer.

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 83 15:17 EDT (Tuesday)
From: Denber.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: "V" Scientific inaccurracies

        "all this stuff about them wanting to eat people"

     Well I think the real reason they want to eat people is that in
an age where nobody blinks an eye at bombs that can wipe out entire
cities anymore, it's becoming increasingly difficult for any
self-respecting alien to do something really shocking anymore.  I call
this the SF "Pink Flamingo" phenomenon.

     I'm not sure people would even be good for a *real* alien.  After
all, can you imagine Captain Kirk eating that big slimy thing in the
cave?  Ugh.

                               - Michel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jun 83 2130-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #16
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 16

Today's Topics:
      Books - Piers Anthony & George Martin & Arthur C. Clarke &
                     Robert A. Heinlein (4 msgs),
                      Films - Forthcoming Films
General Comments - S.F. Books Club & Plate Knowledge

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 May 1983 12:40 mst
From: Lippard.DSOP at SYSTEM-M.PHOENIX.HONEYWELL (James J. Lippard)
Subject: Piers Anthony

     "Juxtaposition" is not in the Xanth series.  It is the concluding
volume of a trilogy (the first two books are "Split Infinity" and
"Blue Adept"). I liked this trilogy better than the last 3 Xanth books
("Centaur Aisle", "Ogre, Ogre", and "Night Mare").

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 83 09:42:58 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: The Dying of the Light

"The Dying of the Light" by George R. R. Martin (Science fiction,
Timescape(?))

     I found this to be a reasonably well plotted novel with good
character development and believable motives.  The novel revolves
around the interaction of five main characters from three different
human splinter cultures, and their reactions to each other as people,
and as members of differing cultures.

     The book seemed to me to be a cross between the best of Cherryh
(alien cultures and motivations) Dickson/Anderson (honor and duty vs
love and friendship) and Vance (believable, intricate, fantastic
settings with a wealth of detail).  In other words, very very good.

     I'd give this one 3.5 on a scale of 1-5.

                              -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 83 10:12:55 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Review of 2010 (spoiler)

     Thanks for the nice review, unfortunately I disagree with you on
a few points:

     1) I don't believe the Chinese are "bad guys", I found it ironic
that the American's and Soviets were cooperating in a "purely
scientific" expedition, and that the Chinese were being imperialistic,
but that added to the story rather than detracting.  As for the
Chinese being "noble savages", noble savages don't do aerodynamic
braking manuvers in Jupiter's upper atmosphere.

     2) I thought the carefully crafted sequence where we are worried
about potential trouble from HAL was well done, especially the
denoument.  After all, I can see at least two explainations of why HAL
*didn't* cause trouble.  a) He's just a stupid computer doing what
he's told (HA!  You DID see 2001 didn't you) b) He does it out of
personal feeling for Dr. Chandra.

     3) Chandra as a stereotyped 2-D character I found ursine
Russians, a joke cracking Tex-american, a repressed scientist who is a
failure at romance, and a hard-nosed female space captain MUCH more
stereotyped than an Indian computer scientist who's best friend is an
intelligent computer, but still wears an ancient fertility symbol
around his neck.  Also SAL 9000 is important in understanding
Chandra's character.

     My main disappointment was with Bowman/Star Child.  Clarke had a
wonderful opportunity to do interesting things with Bowman, and
instead he re-used the ending to "Childhood's End" (death of a planet
and it's native life, bringing into being a new intelligent race
overseen by disembodied all-powerful guardians)

     However, as you say, "HAL's eventual demise is rather
interesting."

     I too found the book somewhat disappointing, but only because I
had expected that Bowman's detonation of the nuclear device and the
"new dawn" parallels to the dawn of man from 2001 would go further
than they did in 2010.

                              -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 83 10:20:38 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Haynes.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Male Chauvinism in Heinlein

     I think you picked a poor example to defend Heinlein's lack of
chauvinism.  Ellie has been letting Max win because she wants him to
like her and to see more of her.  She eventually loses her temper,
tells him off, *and then feels guilty about it*.  I found that whole
scene rather blatantly sexist.

                              -- Charles

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 1983 15:06:16-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: assorted Heinlein msgs

     First, let's correct a matter of fact: "THE LOVERS" and "VENUS
PLUS X" came out when they were written, 9 and 4 years (respectively)
before "STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND". Before SiaSL there was also
"ROGUE QUEEN" (de Camp), "Consider Her Ways" (Wyndham) and a lot of
pieces of leering idiocy like "THE CLIMACTICON" (Livingston). Heinlein
is not exactly a pioneer.

     To continue with the holes in "Daemon"'s missive, "RAH RAH
R.A.H." is hardly a useful piece of source material. I like both the
Robinsons, but I have to say that Spider has the critical sense of a
pebble on the beach.  In particular he won't hear anything against
Heinlein.

     I'd like to know, Mike, where you get off calling Judith a
bookburner (which was hardly the tone of her msg). Heinlein certainly
believes women are capable of great intelligence (his second wife
tended to remind that of him frequently) but he also believes that
they're much happier suppressing that intelligence when it's not used
to manipulate a man (to take your example, Ellie ends happily by
getting married; consider also "The Menace from Earth", "PODKAYNE OF
MARS", "THE STAR BEAST", etc. ad nauseam). It's certainly reasonable
to say of Heinlein that he tends to look at all people simplistically;
it's just that his simplistic assumptions about women are even more
skewed (compared with the experience of many of us) than his
assumptions about men. Heinlein has always been opposed to some of the
classical prejudices (consider remarks about race in "FARNHAM'S
FREEHOLD"), but he substitutes many of his own.

     I'm also curious about your analogy to the blind men and the
elephant.  Obviously peoples' artistic tastes will differ, but I'd
guess that most of the people commenting on "THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST"
had read the whole book, and most have also read a good part of
Heinlein's work, giving them a fair basis for comparison. I haven't
checked off a list, but I think I've read every novel and 95% of his
short work; one of the things that can be said objectively is that he
tends to set up people as "right" or "wrong" and then to treat their
actions accordingly (not so much as Dickson, perhaps, but still quite
visibly).

     My favorite reaction to TNotB was from a friend who read it
recently; she complained that they spent most of the first third of
the book programming the computer. (I skimmed many of those sections.)
TNotB reads like a personal wish-fulfillment fantasy, which is one of
the things making it dull for anyone else.

------------------------------

Date: Mon May 30 1983 01:19:11-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: There's no business like show business

     Greetings all.  As my good friend Rocky the Squirrel used to
always say, "It's time for another special feature..."

     If you've ever considered moving out here to Los Angeles to
"break into" the movies, this is *clearly* the right time.

     "Quality" movies in DROVES are being released or are under
current production here in Tinseltown.  *NOW* is the time for your
gala entry into the fabulous world of cinematic entertainment!

     To prove my point, I've culled a list of some films which:

     1) Have been recently released (though not necessarily
nationwide) or

     2) Have recently finished production (and are waiting for
release) or

     3) Are currently under production

     This list is derived from my regular readings of the local trade
publications combined with the continuous flow of information I
receive from my local contacts inside the studios.

     The majority of the films in this list are at least peripherally
related to the themes of SF-L, though I've tossed in some unrelated
items that appeared to be *real* quality productions.

     Below you'll find this exciting list of film titles and their
"publicity slogans" where available. I have publicity stills for many
of these as well, but unfortunately network bandwidth makes them
difficult for me to provide to you.  Film titles below are
capitalized.  Text in square brackets are my own comments.  The titles
are presented in no particular order.  All listings below are 100%
legit.

======================================================================

        Lauren's Guide To New "Quality" Films (5/83)
        --------------------------------------------

BOOMERANG -- "The comedy that keeps coming back."

SHE -- [Female Warrier "Barbarian-type" film]

SUPERVAN -- "One Mean Machine"

UNHINGED -- "The Nightmare Begins When You Wake Up..."

"If you've been small, two timed, made time, or done time,
 you're ready for BIGTIME".

GIRLS RIOT -- "Young girls behind bars--with Angelika Domrose
               and lots of teenage girls."

"When Halloween night *stopped* being fun..." -- TRICK OR TREATS

C.O.D. -- "The Film That Delivers"

"For eons they traveled the galaxies.  For centuries one was trapped
in a Pharoah's tomb.  Now he is free.  TIME WALKER: Nothing can stop
him, not even time."

UTILITIES -- "Get Mad!  Get even!"

CHAINED HEAT -- "Feel the heat.  Taste the blood.  Face 2000
                 chained women head on!"

THE RETURN OF CAPTAIN INVINCIBLE -- "What the world needs now
                                     is a shining hero!"

ENDGAME -- [Apparently involves gladitorial-type combat and
            warriers in a decayed future city, probably New York]

HELL BEHIND BARS --[Photo shows woman chained and
                    handcuffed to wall]

ATOR THE INVINCIBLE -- [Male warrier "Barbarian-type" film.  Female
                        warrier visible in backround of photo.]

ATOR - THE FIGHTING EAGLE -- [Another "Ator" film.  The same idea.]

THE LOST CITY -- [Apparently involves ancient lost civilization found
                  under desert (possibly similar to the old "classic"
                  film "City Beneath the Sand")]

THE INVINCIBLE BARBARIAN -- [Another barbarian film!  The publicity
                            shot for this gem is a version of that
                            famous picture of the generic "barbarian"
                            with the female on the ground holding onto
                             his leg.]

THE RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD (in 3-D)

SECRETS OF THE PHANTOM CAVERNS

ABSURD

UNCONSCIOUS

"Centuries of Evil Have Just Awakened" -- MAUSOLEUM

STUCK ON YOU! -- "You'll come *unglued* with laughter!! -- The first
                  raunchy comedy for lovers of all ages!"

"Some things never rest in peace." -- FUNERAL HOME

THE EVIL DEAD

99 WOMEN -- "Filmed in Galaxy 3-D"

---------------------------------------------

     This is just a sampling.  As you can see, the opportunities to be
involved in truly creative and quality films have never been greater!
So leave your old keyboard and CRT to gather dust, come on out here to
Hollywood and find YOUR place in the sorts of gems I've listed above.
Your star on Hollywood Boulevard is waiting for you!

                              --Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  1 Jun 1983 07:55-PDT
Subject: Re: Book Club
From: jim at rand-unix

     Yes, the SF book club is worth it, if you like to read good ones
multiple times.  You get a fair quality hardback for a little more
than a paperback price (NFP: I, too, used to buy new paperbacks for
$0.60).  It's not hard to find 4 good ones to buy in your first year,
after which there is no minimum required purchase.  They have reprints
of classics as well as early printings of current ones. ("Life, the
Universe, and Everything" was in my possession while SFL people were
talking about making a trip to England to buy one.)

     The main disadvantage is that their default is that you buy both
of the featured books, so if you don't deal with your mail until a
month after you get it, you're likely to have to return things you
didn't want.

                                 Jim

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 1983 1742-EDT
From: PERKINS at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: RHA-TNotB

     Having read this some time last year my memory may be a little
fuzzy (no pun intended) - I have also recently moved and won't find
the book for a few more weeks...

     My impression of the last chapter was that there was something
missing.  I remember re-reading it several times trying to gain some
insite into what was being said - to no avail.  That was my sole
complaint with the book.

     It certainly is no where near the quality of some of RAH's
earlier works, but I found it quite readable and reasonably
structured.  I have found other authors who's works vary in quality,
too.  Yet even their "lesser" books are good material -- better than
the mill-run pulp that is so plentiful.

     Returning to the main topic: Where can I get my missing pages?

                                 -bp-

                       Perkins at DEC-MARLBORO

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83  17:39 EDT (Wed)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: Plate Knowledge - (nf)

     What state was this car registered in?

                                 {M}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jun 83 2247-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #17
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
          Books - John Norman (3 msgs) & Gene Wolfe (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 June 1983  11:04-EDT (Wednesday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SR.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Who reads the GOR books and WHY?

     Well, a friend of mine once gave me a GOR book for my birthday.
We have a habit of giving each other the n'th book of a long series,
more to gall each other than anything else.  I couldn't finish the
book, and I can finish almost anything.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 1983 16:15:43 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Erik Sherman <esherman@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: Who reads the GOR books and WHY? (neff)

     I shall preface by saying that I have never read a "GOR" book and
am not attempting to defend them.

     Nevertheless, I question the vehemence displayed by the message's
author.  If Norman's views of women genuinely offend you, why do you
constantly return to skimming the books in bookstores?  Do you find
something particularly titilating, like the jurors who had to see an
x-rated movie multiple times to decide if it was obscene?

    Furthermore, the quote you present as the author's personal creed
is taken completely out of context.  Is it the author expressing his
own views?  Is it a bit of fictional characterization?  Readers of
your message cannot know.  I could as easily say that Harper Lee
advocates racism by culling selected quoted from "To Kill a
Mockingbird."  If you must critize someone's work, try to be fair.

                   Erik Sherman (esherman @BBNCCD)

------------------------------

Date: Wed Jun  1 1983 12:18:43-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: Videotapes / GOR

     Greetings.  I'm afraid that I cannot point at a comprehensive
guide to SF films on videotape.  The lists are continually changing
and (so far) have all been almost totally restricted to individual
distribution outlets and/or studios.  It is definitely a challenge to
keep informed in this area -- I get mailings from a ridiculous number
of places who are peddling all manner of sundry and bizarre videotapes
(in fact, there is a company that sells *exceptionally* strange
videotapes which is indeed called "Bizarre".)

     However, I've found that most of the SF-type films that I'd
really like to collect are *not* yet commercially available on tape.
Most of the "recent" releases (i.e. less than 6 years old) are
available, but not a hell of a lot before that.  It is particularly
hard to find titles from the early horror genre, such as "The Mummy".
But, what do you expect from an industry that *still* hasn't seen fit
to release "The 5000 Finger of Dr. T." on videotape?

     If anybody is interested in any particular titles, let me know
and I'll see if I can find them in my available commercial listings...

----

     Sigh.  As for the Gor novels...  They are (as far as I know) an
almost unique case in the literary world.  As others have already
stated, they started out "not too bad" (at least the first book in the
series, "Tarnsman of Gor"), and rapidly decayed.  There are
approaching twenty of them now, not to mention other works by the
author (John Lange [who pens the books as "John Norman"]) which are
placed outside of the Gor "universe" but are of equal "quality".
Lange even wrote a sex manual ("Imaginative Sex") where he brings some
of his Gorean ramblings into the "real world".  (Lange, by the way, is
apparently a professor of philosophy at Queens College in New York.)

     The Gor novels sell very well, and rumor has it that the
publisher (DAW) would crumble without those books.  I managed to read
the first three quite a few years ago, and have made a point to at
least briefly sample a few random pages from each of the succeeding
novels as they appeared on the shelves of my local SF/Fantasy
emporium.  I mean, you can't make a problem go away by ignoring it,
and I've had this perverse desire to see if the novels could POSSIBLY
get any worse -- so a quick flip through some pages while standing at
the shelf has seemed in order.  Yeah, from my brief skimmings, it
appears that they have continued to decline.  I once (briefly)
considered writing a satire of the Gor books, to be called "Heaps of
Gor" -- but quickly determined that it was IMPOSSIBLE to satirize them
-- they are already satires -- only the author apparently doesn't
realize it (or doesn't care)...

     I don't consider these novels to be a particularly serious threat
to society.  Let's face it gang, there's all sorts of really
disgusting looking crud lurking beneath the "log" of civilization,
and, by definition, beneath *all* of us.  The fact that these novels
sell is simply a concrete demonstration of the "hidden" side of
ourselves -- the side that is only infrequently discussed in "polite"
company, but is real and factual nonetheless.  I suppose novels like
these give some persons a relatively harmless means to vicariously
deal with some of their hidden emotions.  Of course, relatively few
people overall (I hope!) are "bent" in the direction of the Gor
novels, but I would submit that we *all* have our kinks, though we
might not easily recognize them as such.

     I will admit, however, that I occasionally feel this cold chill
running down my spine when I consider one particularly grim
possibility: what if there are Gor "fan clubs"?  Can you imagine the
minutes of the meetings?  Bizarre, indeed.

                              --Lauren--

P.S.  "...and you may not know it, but [the person standing next to
you] may be from Outer Space..."

                              "Criswell"
                       PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE

                                --LW--

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 83 22:11:54-PST (Sun)
From: harpo!npoiv!hou5f!ariel!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@Berkeley
Subject: THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH and THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER

     Gene Wolfe's tetralogy "THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN" is now complete
with the publication of "THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH".  CITADEL follows
the ex-torturer Severian, shocked by his loss at the end of the
previous volume ("THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR"), as he wanders northward
and becomes embroiled in the war with the Ascians.  It rapidly becomes
apparent that the war is more than just a struggle for territory, but
its full complexity does not become apparent until a series of
not-quite-coincidences leads to Severian's accession to the position
of Autarch of the realm.  The book concludes with Severian's regal
return to the Citadel in which he was born and raised as a torturer,
where he resolves to attempt to bring forth the New Sun, just as the
former Autarch tried to do, but failed.  The book also explains more
of the background to the peculiar Christian/Hindu mythology, and even
provides a science-fictional rationale for some of it.  All in all an
excellent book and worth buying in hardcover (as I did).  Most of the
important threads of plot from the previous volumes are wrapped up,
but alas we do not find out whether Severian succeeds in his final
task; if this matters to you, then you will want to read the
(projected) sequel "THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN" when it comes out.

     If like me you would like to know even more about the world of
"THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN", there is yet another book, "THE CASTLE OF
THE OTTER" (Ziesing Bros.: Willimantic, Connecticut, 1982, 117pp.).
The title of this book derives from a mistaken announcement of CITADEL
in Locus magazine; Wolfe couldn't resist using the name because he
knew the perfect epigram for it (from "THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS").
Wolfe explains why he wrote the book: "When a writer has the gall to
do an entire book, even a very small one, about the writing of a
previous book, it's more or less customary for him to announce that
he's acting in response to innumerable and insistent demands.
Unfortunately, I'm not...  Why do it, then? Out of a sort of blind
optimism.  Every writer worth his two-cents-a-word hopes, in some
little corner of his mind at least, that somewhere out there, there
are a few people who will do more than read his book, pitch it away,
and reach for the next one -- people who will read and reread, study
the cover, perhaps, in search of some clue, shelve the book and later
take it out again, just to hold.  There was a time when I could put
the palm of my hand flat on the front of a tattered paperback called
"THE DYING EARTH" and feel the magic seeping through the cardboard:
Turjan of Miir, Liane the Wayfarer, T'sais, Chun the Unavoidable.
Nobody I knew had so much as heard of that book, but I knew it was the
finest book in the world."  Needless to say, THE DYING EARTH by Jack
Vance and its sequel "THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD" are among my absolute
favorite books and there are more than a few similarities between "NEW
SUN" and "DYING EARTH"...  an interesting bit of trivia.

     More trivia in "THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER":

     * "NEW SUN" originated as an unpublished novella called" THE
        FEAST OF SAINT CATHERINE".

     * The story grew from a novella to a novel to a trilogy to
       finally a tetralogy...

     * "NEW SUN" as a whole went through two drafts before the
        first volume came out, in a situation not unlike "THE
        LORD OF THE RINGS" -- Wolfe wanted to be able to
        change the first book on the basis of plot events in
        the last book...

     * There is a chapter "Words Weird and Wonderful" that
       glosses all the strange words in "THE SHADOW OF THE
       TORTURER" on a chapter by chapter basis.

     * There are also chapters on writing, on publishing, on
       warfare in Severian's time and also a chapter
       containing a set of jokes as told by various
       characters from "NEW SUN".

                           Yours trivially,

Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
             (619) 452-4016           sdamos!donn@nprdc

------------------------------

Date: 12 Feb 83 15:46:01-PST (Sat)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@Berkeley
Subject: Re: THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH and THE C - (nf)

     I didn't much care for "Shadow of the Torturer".  Wolfe's style
is uncomfortably dense and distant.  A good criticism of "New Sun" was
voiced in a LOCUS review recently.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 83 1:15:19-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!sdchema!donn@Berkeley.arpa
Subject: Re: comments by mclure@sri-unix

     I disagree and agree strongly with Stuart.

     I enthusiastically recommend "THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN".  Everyone
I know who has read the whole series has liked it.  I could be more
persuasive by saying that I know only one person in my immediate
circle of friends who was only able to finish "THE SHADOW OF THE
TORTURER" (he went back to reading mystery novels...).  I knew one
person who said he didn't like Wolfe because he hadn't enjoyed "The
Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories" and on that basis wasn't
going to read any more by him; but I caught him later with his own
copy of SHADOW in paperback and it turned out he was desperate for
more and ended up borrowing CLAW and SWORD from me.  As for Wolfe's
"dense" style (I think "baroque" might be a better word), I like it.
I also like Avram Davidson... talk about baroque!  You can make the
same charge against J. R. R. Tolkien, for that matter.  It's basically
a question of taste and it's too bad that Stuart didn't like the book.

     I agree with Stuart that "THE THREE STIGMATA OF PALMER ELDRITCH"
and "MARTIAN TIME-SLIP" are worth reading; other Philip Dick books I
can recommend are "EYE IN THE SKY", "THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE" and
"UBIK".  ("UBIK" is the novel where reality comes in aerosol spray
cans.)

Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
             (619) 452-4016           sdamos!donn@nprdc

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jun 83 2255-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #18
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 1 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 18

Today's Topics:
  Books - Daniel Da Cruz & H. Ridger Haggard & Mark Twain (3 msgs) &
      Robert Silverberg & Jack Vance (2 msgs) & The Grail War &
                      P.K. Dick & C. J. Cherryh

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 Dec 1982 2035-PST
From: Dolata at SUMEX-AIM
Subject: 'Ayes of Texas' by Daniel Da Cruz

     I would definately NOT suggest 'The Ayes of Texas'.  In fact, I 
would suggest NOT 'The Ayes of Texas'.

     The first 69 (?) pages of the book are a well written, fast paced
action story about a young roust-about who gets into the Navy, goes to
WWII, gets wounded, and how his life is turned around in a VA 
hospital.  I enjoyed this part of the book completely, as did 2 other 
people I talked with.

     However, after that point the book falls apart, and I found my 
self skipping big sections to get to the end quickly.  To begin with, 
the politics are so right-wing that my John Birch father sounds down 
right liberal in comparison.  A scenario is set up in which the bad 
guy Russkies have completed a civil defense system so invulnerable, 
that they can dictate unilateral disarmament to the US, and we rush to
comply!  Apparently all of the American hawks and conservatives are 
asleep, or have moved.  But don't worry, our hero and the governor of 
Texas defeat the red fleet all by themselves, in a scene which is 
amusing because of the grandure of the ideas, marred only by the fact 
that they are technologically absurd.

     Read the Rosinante books by Gilliland (sp?) instead, they are 
excellent.

                    Dan Dolata (Dolata@SUMEX-AIM)

------------------------------

Date: 3 January 1983 2103-EST (Monday)
From: David.Lamb at CMU-CS-A
Subject: H. Rider Haggard

     A note in SFL V6#113 from December 21 criticizes the novel "SHE"
by H.  Rider Haggard for its "stock" plot elements e.g. lost
civilization from which modern-day explorers escape just before
disaster wipes out all evidence.  "She" is one of four novels by
Haggard about Ayesha; my copy of "Ayesha: the Return of She" (sequel
to "She") has a dedication dated 1905.  It thus seems likely to me
that Haggard's novels are the source of those "stock" elements (though
A. Merritt's stories may have been equally influential e.g. "The Moon
Pool", copyrighted 1919).  Del Rey reprinted these old books several
years ago (around 1978).  It's been too long since I read them for me
to give a reasonable review, but here are the titles:

"Wisdom's Daughter" (ISBN 0-345-27428-8) Set in ancient Egypt, tells 
how Ayesha is cursed with immortality.

"She and Allan" (ISBN 0-345-27449-0) Allan Quartermain and 
Umslopogaas, heroes of other books by Haggard, meet Ayesha.

"She" (ISBN 0-345-27453-9) The book reviewed earlier in SFL.

"Ayesha: The Return of She" (ISBN 0-345-27557-8) Sequel to She.

I found all of these books worth reading.  Haggard also wrote "King 
Solomon's Mines"; I haven't read it (SF fan prejudice against 
mainstream?) but have heard it's good.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 83 11:34:15-PST (Tue)
From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxi!houxz!ihnp4!ihuxh!jvs@UCB-C70
Subject: NO.44 Question

     Can someone out there tell me why there was a fake version of
"No.  44, The Mysterious Stranger".  Was someone trying to rip off
Mark Twain's estate or what?

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jan 83 8:48:54-PST (Tue)
From: npois!houxm!houxa!ixn5c!inuxc!inuxd!stevens@UCB-C70
Subject: Re: NO. 44

     I saw a TV version of "No. 44, The Mysterious Stranger" on The
Movie Channel (a cable movie channel) a while back.  I seem to
remember that it was co-produced by a (possibly PBS) station somewhere
in the Midwest.

     The TV version seemed to follow the (real, not fake) written
version faithfully, and was very well done.

                           --Scott Stevens
                    --American Bell, Indianapolis

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jan 83 1:06:22-PST (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn@UCB-C70
Subject: NO. 44; or, Fun With Your New Universe

     I hate to fan flames, especially on the net, but the discussion
of perception and reality in net.misc was too much to resist, because
I have just read Mark Twain's "NO. 44, THE MYSTERIOUS STRANGER".  (I
have all kinds of things to say about other novels like Philip Dick's
"Ubik" or Christopher Priest's "THE PERFECT LOVER" but in the
interests of time and sanity I shall refrain.)

     A number of you may have read a story by Mark Twain called "The
Mysterious Stranger" which has appeared in various collections of
Twain's work over the years.  In fact, unless you are a student of
literature then you probably didn't realize that this version is a
fake.  A new version of the story in novel length is now available in
paperback from "The Mark Twain Library", published by the University
of California Press for $3.95.  To quote the blurb:

        "A bogus version of this story was published in 1916 by
        Albert Bigelow Paine, Mark Twain's official biographer.
        That version relied on the first instead of the final [NB
        - third!] draft, deleted one-fourth of Mark Twain's words,
        added a character, and misrepresented the ending.  This
        Mark Twain Library edition frees the novel from such
        interference and presents it for the first time as the
        author would have published it had he lived to do so."

     August Feldner is a 16-year-old printer's apprentice in the tiny
Austrian town of Eseldorf.  It is the winter of the year 1490, and the
print shop is a small outpost of modernism in a landscape that is
otherwise unchanged since the Middle Ages.  One cold day a scrawny
youth dressed in rags appears at the door of the shop and begs for
food.  The shop men are annoyed at the interruption and want to throw
him out but he is defended by the elderly maid and by August, and the
master of the household allows him to stay if he can work.  When asked
for his name, he answers: "Number 44, New Series 864,962."

     Soon 44 (as he is called for short) begins to demonstrate that
there is more about him that is unusual than just his name.  August
discovers that 44 can read his mind, and when 44 gets in trouble from
the older men in the shop for not knowing how to work as a printer,
August helps him out by offering him mental hints.  Eventually we find
that 44 can make things move around in the shop merely by looking at
them, and can talk to animals.  What are 44's powers and where do they
come from?  Twain supplies a unique ending which "explains" how this
could all come about...

     I don't want this to be a spoiler, so go out and buy the book if
you want to know the answer.  I recommend it strongly, as I also
recommend Twain's other science fiction and fantasy such as "A
CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT".  When you finish reading
it, think for a while about what it means to exist...  and THEN maybe
reply to the net.

Donn Seeley UCSD Chemistry Dept. RRCF ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdchema!donn
             (619) 452-4016           sdamos!donn@nprdc

------------------------------

Date: 6 Feb 83 16:06:56-PST (Sun)
From: menlo70!sri-unix!mclure@Berkeley
Subject: Silverberg reviews - (nf)

     I've been reading a lot of Silverberg lately and have some
extremely brief reviews (in descending order of preference):

                         DYING INSIDE (1972)

     Marvelous. Excellent characterization.  Somewhat self-pitying
story of a telepath losing his power. To many, this is Silverberg's
best. One of my ten favorite fiction books.

                      THE BOOK OF SKULLS (1972)

     Interesting story of four young men in search of themselves and
the destructive course the search takes.  Each chapter is told from a
personal viewpoint of one of them. Much of the focus is on sexuality
and preferences.

                        TOWER OF GLASS (1970)

     Describes a fanatical and obsessive man's quest to communicate
with aliens across light-years by building a tachyon communicator
housed in a giant "tower of Babel" by using a mass of androids
subservient to society.

                      THE MAN IN THE MAZE (1969)

     A man, formerly spurned by society because of certain alien
induced emanations from his mind, is recruited by Earth for an
important mission. They have to penetrate the maze-like city he lives
in on another planet.

                         TO LIVE AGAIN (1969)

     Couldn't finish this one. It plodded on without too much of a
plot and too many characters. The story is about a future where souls
of dead people can be reimplanted in live people.

    LORD VALENTINE'S CASTLE (1979)

     Grossly over-bloated. Couldn't finish this one either. A real
disappointment. Normally Silverberg's books are tightly knit and fast
paced. This thing is a cumbersome story with tiresome characters.
There are simply too many big books/series out there which try to
create a big world with zany characters and a simple quest. Boring.

     Silverberg's best years are usually regarded as 1968-1972.

                                Stuart

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 83 23:40:49-PST (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!cliff@Berkeley
Subject: Any Jack Vance fiends out there?

     Does anyone have a list of all published novels, novellas, short
stories?  Any trivia? Everyone know that "The Dying Earth" and "Eyes
of the Overworld" are classics. So what about it?"

     I would like to know the answer to the second above because I
have read everything I know of ten times and would like to get some
new material.

     The above message was posted for a friend, please reply to the
address that follows, and not the address in the header.  Thanks in
advance:

              ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lanl-a!unm-ivax!collier
                    ...ucbvax!unmvax!ivax:collier

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 83 18:12:09-PST (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!lanl-a!unm-ivax!cliff@Berkeley
Subject: Jack Vance request updated

     Jack Vance was mentioned in a recent news article as the author
of "The Dying Earth" and "Eyes of the Overworld".  These are, of
course, classics of long standing in both the science fiction and
fantasy genres. He is one of my favorite authors.

     This reference to Vance on the net sparked the conception of a
possible solution to something that has had me stumped for a while:

     I was wondering if anyone had a complete (or partial) chronology
of Vance's work, including such things as:

        title of publication (novel or shorter work),
        date (year) of publication,
        first publisher (sf/fant magazine or book publisher)
        of publication.

        Anthologies are kosher.

     Needless to say, I am a packrat; I would also be very interested
having this information so I can hunt down the obscure titles and
finish my collection.  If I receive enough partial lists and requests
for the complete one, I will post the "final" list to the net.

                (thanks in advance, but please answer by mail
                 to the address below, and not the address on
                 the header)

                          Michael H. Collier
              ...ucbvax!lbl-csam!lanl-a!unm-ivax!collier

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 83 10:36:18-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!jtg@Berkeley
Subject: Request for Info--THE GRAIL WAR

     The other day while in a bookstore, I came across a book called
"THE GRAIL WAR".  Seems it is part II of a trilogy and I have not been
able to find parts I or III.  What I'm interested in is if anybody out
there in netland has read this trilogy, and is it worthwhile reading.
It's supposedly about King Arthur's knights, and the author's name is
Monaco or something like that.  Please respond by mail to me, and I
will summarize if enough interest.

                              Jim Grosch
                              harpo!jtg

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 83 13:15:25-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!mhuxi!mhuxv!mhuxm!pyuxjj!rlr@Berkeley
Subject: P. K. Dick\s Penultimate Truth

     I just recently finished Philip K. Dick's "The Penultimate
Truth", and found it to be quite good.  However, I have a few
questions that someone who has read the book may be able to answer.  I
loaned the book to a friend, and it's been a few weeks, so I don't
have access to all of the names of people/places/things that I have
questions about, so please bear with me.

     1) Was a time transport device sent into the past along with the
'artifacts'?  If so, did the 'Indian' find it?  Did he live
a prolonged life up to the present day (of the book) or did
he travel in time?  Why did his appearance (age?) fluctuate?

     2) Could someone please explain the very end of the book to me?

     3) In the book, a TV documentary aired in 1982 altered the
population's perceptions about World War II, using actors playing the
parts of FDR, Stalin, Churchill, etc. (though the audience assumed
this was real newsreel footage).  What is the relationship between
this fictitious TV documentary and the current TV miniseries "Winds of
War"? (RHETORICAL QUESTION; SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT... )

     Also, would someone recommend other works by Philip K. Dick?  I
know of several books (Time Out of Joint, Valis), but I would like to
receive some opinions about what to read next.

                                Thanx.

                                 Rich

------------------------------

Date: 14 Feb 83 09:30:40 EST
From: Ginder@CMU-CS-C
Subject: C.J. Cherryh's "Merchanter's Luck"

MINI REVIEW:

     I liked this book.  It takes place in the same universe as
"Downbelow Station", and is of the same or better quality.

QUESTION:

     Although I've read "Downbelow Station" (some time ago), I don't
recall reading anything about the name "Kreja" (the main character's
family name) or about a merchanter ship called "Le Cygne".  At times,
while reading "Merchanter's Luck", I got the impression that I should
remember these from "Downbelow Station".  Does anyone out there have
any better recollection of "Downbelow Station" so as to set me
straight on the significance of these names (or lack thereof)?

                             -Joe Ginder

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jun 83 1143-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #20
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 5 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (11 msgs)
















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 31 May 83 14:25:11-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: SPOILER -- Why did Darth know.....

     It's not really surprising that Darth did not know about Leia.
Remember that Darth did not recognize Luke as his son when he first
"felt" him in episode 4 ("The force is strong in this one" -- but no
"Hey!  That's my kid").  Only as he felt the Force growing in Luke did
he recognize Luke as his offspring.  Since the force has not yet grown
strong in Leia, he did not "feel" her.

     Clearly, Darth/Anakin was around for the twins conception, but
not their birth.  I wonder who mom was?

                                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 83 12:20:05-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ih1ap!pat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: No More Lucas Films??

     On Monday May 30th, the national program Nightline on ABC
interviewed the VP of Lucasfilm about his future plans. Lucas is going
to take time off before deciding on continuing the SW pictures. It was
reported that the original SW cost $10 million, TESB cost $30 million
and the new ROTJ cost over $40 million to produce. Lucas feels this is
too much and until costs can become more realistic, he will not make
any more SW pictures.

     As a side note, in this same program they had Siskel and Ebert
confronting some asshole named Smith? who thought all of the SW movies
were terrible. A pretty good confrontation, but Siskel and Ebert are
so use to being good quippers that they provided better answers.

Patrick A. Fargo
BTL - IH

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 7:21:41-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!mhuxi!mhuxt!eagle!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Other Hope

     Which movie are you talking about!  RotJ most certainly cleared
up who the other hope was!

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 20:42:00-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxf!5941ux!kpk @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: re RotJ (not a spoiler)

     I read a review of RotJ, in NEWSWEEK, I believe, where the writer
stated his or her disappointment in the failure of RotJ to give us an
idea of what kind of government the Jedi establish. The problems and
successes of an new Jedi-ocracy would be a good basis for the next
trilogy.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 83 15:52:47-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ihuxw!rtf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ

                Give 'em hell Barb!

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 6:34:53-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: ROTJ complaints

     First, a little problem with a scene.  Down on the moon, R2D2
gets zapped while trying to talk to the computer in the bunker (to
open the door) at Y.A. conveniently placed I/O port.  He looks pretty
bad to me after that; totally wiped out!  Yet not much later we see
him working just fine.  In ANH, at least they said they'd fix him.

     Now then, more thoughts on the ways this movie was disappointing.
The main problem stems from their trying to wrap everything up, I
think.

     Rescue Han
     Have Luke finish with Yoda
     Determine Vader's true identity
     Reveal the Emperor (corporeally)
     Reveal the "Other"
     Have the Empire die, or at least look like it's in deep trouble

     Also,...

     Create a setting for a new space battle
     Introduce some new creature who will steal the show (R2D2, Yoda,
     Ewoks)
     Have Leia show some skin

     With the additional requirements of:

     Don't make the movie too long
     Make it understandable and satisfying to little kids

     Quite a lot, eh?

                                      not a Canadian,
                                      Jim Heliotis
                                      allegra!rochester!heliotis
                                      seismo!rochester!heliotis
                                      heliotis@Rochester

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 7:53:45-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!eagle!alice!rabbit!jj @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: QUESTION  - *non-spolier*

     An even better question than "Who trained the Emperor?"  is "Who
IS the Emperor?"  As I seem to remember, the Emperor is the only one
who actually drew visible (and apparantly deadly) energy from the
force and used it DIRECTLY against a living thing (perhaps a
characteristic of the Dark Side?).

     I think the question of who the Emperor is is intended to
encourage us to watch 1,2, and 3.

     Comments?

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 22:35:53-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!bch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: ROTJ ****SPOILER****

     First, some answers:

     It seems clear that Anakin is not sufficiently redeemed to join
the bright side of the force.  It remains for Luke to perform one more
task to fully free his father.  Traditionally, the rite of fire is a
purification rite, purifying the subject and freeing his soul.  In
this case one of the things which must be purified is the Vader
personna, hence the burning of Vader's trappings.  (It is also
possible that most of Vader's garments are insepa- rable from
Vader/Anakin himself.)  Obviously, this works.  If you look closely at
the final appearance of the ectoplasmic trio (Anakin, Obi-wan and
Yoda) you will see that Anakin materializes slightly later than his
compatriots.

     How did Luke know there was another?  Yoda told him on his
deathbed.

     Second, some history:

     According to an interview with Lucas in 1978, Vader's physical
condition came about as the result of a duel with Luke's Father on a
volcanic planet.  Luke's father was killed, and Vader slipped into a
pit of molten lava from which he crawled out by himself.  From that
time on he must wear a portable life-support system to survive, hence
the garb and the heavy breathing.  Clearly the plot has been
rewritten: in the novelization of "Return of the Jedi" Vader's duel is
with Obi-Wan.  The results are roughly the same save that Obi-Wan
lives to tell about it.

     There is either a glaring error or a glaring rewrite of something
in the novelization as well.  Obi-wan tells Luke that Owen his *his*
(Obi-wan's) brother.  I thought it was very clear that Owen was
Anakin's brother in SW IV -- "A New Hope".

     Finally, some speculation:

     I found the emperor to be the single most fascinating character
in ROTJ.  I sincerely hope that Episodes I-III (if they are made)
trace his rise to power from a member of the Republican Senate, the
seduction of Anakin Skywalker and the Fall of the Jedi Knights.
Perhaps Lucas wants to trace an earlier history but there is much plot
in the above.

     At last:

     Methinks that 'Bantha poodoo' does not translate from the Huttese
to 'Bantha Fodder' like the subtitles say.

                                        Byron

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 21:05:36-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: What's the only piece of Imperial hardware ...

     What's the only piece of Imperial hardware that doesn't blow up
when you destroy it?

     Darth Vader's personal armor.

     If the Emperor was so smart, why did he leak the rebels correct
information about the shield generator location?

     Your guess is as good as mine.

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 83 20:03:40-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!cbosgd!mark @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: snowtroopers?

     I have a friend who claims that the people in the white armor
were at some point called "snow troopers" (in a previous Star Wars
movie).  I thought they were just "imperial storm troopers".  Can
anyone confirm or deny this, or add details?

------------------------------

Date: 27 May 83 18:42:12-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!rba-dx @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: future episodes, **SPOILER** from ROTJ

     After seeing "Return of the Jedi" Wednesday, I was left with a
question. I'm pretty sure that Episodes I, II, and II will be about
Anakin (Darth Vader) Skywalker and how he was drawn to the Dark Side
of the force (what is the offer he couldn't refuse?).  But, what will
Episodes VII, VIII, and IX be about? Will the Empire rise into power
once more, lead by a sinister, new leader?  Or will a new enemy
terrorize the galaxy?

     "The emperor is less forgiving than I am . . ."
     Danny Espinoza
     allegra!rba-dx

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  5 Jun 83 1147-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #21
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Sunday, 5 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (7 msgs)









----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 May 83 18:32:28-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!hou5c!hou5e!hou5a!mat@Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ Impressions.  ***SPOILE**

     These are some impressions of Return of the Jedi.

     The visuals are nothing short of fantastic.  I especially liked
Jabba's floating `barge'.

     Before I go further with specifics, let's hit a few general
points.  SW-ANH and TESB were good enough to stand by themselves. NO
WAY for this flick.  There was very little continuity of action, and
contrary to other folks who have said that Mark Hamill can't act, I
feel that he had the only believably written part in the story.  The
dramatic pace of the show was very badly handled, and many important
scenes weren't believable.

     Now specifics.

     Jabba was ok, but there some things that weren't believable.  The
glimpse after Luke destroys the Jabba's monster where some of Jabba's
folk mourn for it is not realistic.  In a place such as Jabba's hall
where fear and pleasure alternate, it seems unlikely that the guards,
who might at any moment be terminated, would have had either the time
(high turnover in a place like that) or the inclination to gain
affection for the beast when they stood a chance of being a meal for
it sooner or later.  And it just doesn't WORK in the film.

     And the pace was wrong.  The original picture of Jabba and his
hall was a little comical, but it grew frightening very quickly.  From
a purely technical point of view, the comic relief should have been
held awhile.

     When Leia was releasing Han, she said she was ``Someone who loves
you ...  a lot.''  This was not all that realistic.  Think about it --
she is trying to get him out of there.  The greeting card schamltz
would have waited.  And we would have seen Leia PROVE her love by
enduring Jabba's abuse.  How many women would allow themselves to be
raped by another species (submitting to bestiality) in order to pull
off an impossible rescue of a man who might not love them?  This
should have been brought into sharper focus.  Even a remark from Han
would do it.

     When Leia strangles Jabba, it seems to be a little too pat, too
easy.  It seemed too melodramatic, as well.

     And Jabba, being apparently a lover of torture (applied to
others) would probably have carried the cat-and-mouse with Luke a
little further.  Next, why did Luke wait until they were about to make
him walk the plank before fighting?  After all, he could have
jumped/flew out of the monsters pit immediately.  Was he just playing
cat-and-mouse with Jabba?  If so, his demeanor with Jabba (``You
should have bargained.  I will destroy you.'')  was all wrong.  Luke
would almost certainly have been more coy.  And this is not acting.
It is writing.  Yes, acting might have saved the day.
(``-offhandedly: You SHOULD have bargained. I -gravely: WILL -quietly:
destroy you.'')  But let us not fault Hamill for not being Brando.

     In the opening, the introduction reads ``Little does he know that
the Empire is building a new Death Star'' or some such.  OUCH!  I had
to pull the corncobs out of my ribs -- and it got worse when Luke
found out AFTER rescuing Han abouth the new Death Star.  That tidbit
of information was carried into the movie by an unmitigated Deus Ex
Machina.  If it was important enough to rate explanation in the
opening, why was it tossed into the plot exposition with that kind of
devil-may-care attitude?

     In the big scene -- the scene with the Emperor -- the Wrath of
the Emperor is badly handled.  He jumps up and gets VERY physical,
throwing sparks all over the place to zap Luke.  Why?  He does these
things with his mind.  It would have been far better if he sat with
his eye closed as the sparks engulfed Luke -- and as Luke resisted by
clearing his mind of hatred.  And, just as the Emperor is about to
overcome Luke, just as all his energy and conciousness are focused on
Luke's destruction, Vader smites the Emperor with Luke's light sabre
and they both are engulfed in a blaze of glorious purple (not blue,
please) sparks.  A horrible scream is heard, and the Emperor's body
disappears.  Then he appears in ``holographic'' form, and, with a look
of panic and terror, fades thinner and thinner until only a shadow is
left.  Finally the shadow fades as well.  That is how it COULD have
been.

     Why didn't the battle with the Empire's fleet more closely track
the battle between Luke and the Emperor?  Yes it might have been corny
if overdone, but it could have been believable>

     If Yoda, on his deathbed (contrived, no?) tells Luke that Luke
had learned all he needed from Yoda, why was it that in TESB Yoda
wanted Luke to stay?  And why wasn't Yoda available in ``holographic
image'' just as soon as he died?  Ok, it's not unreasonable, but not
explained either.

     And why didn't Anakin Skywalker, after his salvation from The
Dark Side of the Force, disappear immediately upon dying?

     And, if Leia is strong of the Force, and has experienced it (when
Luke called out to her near the end of TESB) why didn't she at least
have some view of the Three Transfigured Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda, and
Anakin when Luke could see them? At least to feel their presence?

     Then there were the scenes where the furry litle people are
destroying the two-legged tanks (whatever they are called).  They find
about six or seven ways to do it, and this is a little TOO much comic
relief.  Also, they could have been saved for a whole bunch of
action-twists, each alternating with a hopeless or disasterous
situation.

     And why was the rebel cruiser able to withstand the
planet-bursting blasts of the ``fully operational Death Star''?  If it
had been only partially operational, it might have been more credible
from BOTH the point of view of the cruiser and the point of view of
the amount of time needed to complete the station.

     Oddly enough, Obi-Wan's explanation of how he had not lied was
believable -- perhaps because that is the way I would have written it
myself.

     What else?  Well, in going from the destruction of Jabba, to Yoda
on his deathbed, and back to the battle group, the pace was lost.
After the first drawn-out and terrible vanquishing of an enemy, we
should either set up for a higher tension or see some kind of escape
valve (eg comic relief) before the vastly different type of emotions
needed to deal with the Yoda scenes -- and we should have had a little
more build-up on the way back.  The placement and handling of the Yoda
scene destroyed the flow of the action.

                          Well, I could say a lot more, but
                          this should be enough to start things
                          going.

                               Mark Terribile
                               Duke of deNet

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 83 15:06:16-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!msdc!gatech!arnold @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Of course DV can be Lukes father.

     Quite correct. In the novelization of the movie, Ben tells Luke
that he and Darth/Anakin had a fight, a Vader fell into a molten pit.
When he climbed out, he was completely evil, the last good having
vanished (or been burned away).

     That is the reason why 1) his head was so scarred and ugly in
TESB, and 2) he has to alway the breath mask. He needs the portable
life support system -- which regulates both breathing and heart rate
-- in order to stay alive.

        Arnold Robbins

        decvax!cornell!allegra!gatech!arnold

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 83 11:20:47-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Return of the Jedi review -- non-Spoiler

     RAH!  yeah!  Yay!  ****!  Go see it!  Production quality better
than ever.  Harrison Ford delivers superb acting job.  All plot lines
brilliantly tied up.  I was incredibly happy with the movie.

                                        -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 83 10:39:41-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!iy160 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Yoda song

     Here is the Lyric to the YODA song that somebody requested a
while ago.  It is from an unreleased tape by "Wierd Al Yankovich"
(sp?). It is also copyright WAY, most likely, though I am not sure.
You can probably here it if you listen to the Dr. Demento Show long
enough. All of Wierd Al's songs are extremely funny, so check 'em out
if you get a chance. This song should be sung to the tune of "Lola" by
The Kinks.

                                 Yoda

I met him in a bog down in Degobah
Where it bubbles all the time like a giant carbonated soda
S-O-D-A, soda
I saw a little runt sitting there on a log
I asked him his name and in a raspy voice he said:
Yoda, Y-O-D-A, Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo-Yoda

Well I've been around but I ain't never seen
A guy who looks like a muppet but he's wrinkled and green
Oh my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo, Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo-Yoda
Well I'm not dumb, but I can't understand
How he can lift me in the air, just by raising his hand
Oh my Yoda, Y-O-D-A, Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda

Well I left home just a week before
And I never ever been a Jedi before
But Obi Wan, he set me straight o' course
He said go to Yoda and he'll show you the force.
Well I'm not the kind that would argue with him
So it looks like I'm gonna start all over again
With my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda

So I used the Force
I picked up a box
I lifted some rocks
While I stood on my head
Well I wont forget what Yoda said
He said, "Luke stay away from the darker side,
And if you start to go astray let the Force be your guide."
Oh my Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo Yoda
"Well I know Darth Vader's really got you annoyed,
But remember if you kill him then you'll be unemployed."
Oh my Yoda Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo-Yoda

Well I heard my friends really got in a mess.
So I'm gonna have to leave my Yoda, I guess.
But I know that I'll be comin' back someday;
I'll be playin' this part 'till I'm old and gray,
Cuz a long term contract I had to sign
Says I'll be making these movies 'till the end of time
With my Yoda, Y-O-D-A Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo- Yoda

Yoda, Y-O-D-A Yoda, Yo-Yo-Yo-Yo-Yoda
(Repeat and fade)

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 83 15:28:24-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Other Hope

     One thing that is not cleared up by the movie OR the book: Who
was the other hope?

     Some people I've talked to said it was Leia -- but she did
nothing (really) to defeat the Emperor.  My contention is that the
other hope was Anakin Skywalker.  He defeated the emperor and came
back to the good side (stretched my ability to believe a bit with
that, but what the heck).  The title is also "Return of the Jedi";
perhaps that refers to the return of Anakin?

     Comments?

Gene Spafford

Spaf at GATech             (CS Net)
Spaf.GATech at UDel-Relay  (ARPA)                School of ICS
...!allegra!gatech!spaf    (uucp)                Georgia Tech
...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!spaf                   Atlanta, GA 30332

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 19:18:11-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Of course DV can be Lukes father.

     I thought everybody knew that Darth was a cute guy until he was
thrown into a volcano.  Just in case some of you didn't, that is
indeed how he got so ugly.

                                -Glenn


p.s. I couldn't hardly understand Yoda, either.  But then, I could
never understand Fozzie Bear from the muppets, and of course, they
sound exactly alike.  It looked like they were using a different
puppet for Yoda than last movie.  Anyone else think that?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 83 10:41:12-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Repeat of ROTJ 'Other' poll results--NON-SPOILER

     I thought the net newcomers might enjoy seeing this.

                                      Jim Heliotis
                                      allegra!rochester!heliotis
                                      seismo!rochester!heliotis
                                      heliotis@Rochester

=====================================================================

Subject: Results of 'Other' Poll
Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers,net.movies

It is February 1st -- premiere day for "Star Wars" on HBO, so...

     Here it is folks!  The results of the poll that asked the
question:

     'Please give your opinion on about whom Yoda was talking when, in
"The Empire Strikes Back", he said to OB-Wan, "No, there is an Other",
referring to someone (besides Luke?) who could restore the republic.'

     For the record, I did not include people who made more than one
guess, unless they indicated one much more strongly than the other, in
which case I discarded the weaker guess.

     I feel I must tell all you potential poll takers not to fear a
deluge of response.  This was one of the hottest items on the net two
months ago, and look -- well under 100 responded!  I shall keep a list
of names and votes, so that I can congratulate the correct people when
"Return of the Jedi" comes out.

     54 total votes, 22 different votes

 16.7%:  Princess Leia
 11.1%:  Han Solo
  9.3%:  Don't care
  9.3%:  Boba Fett
  7.4%:  Someone New
  7.4%:  Lando Carlissian
  5.6%:  Darth Vader
  5.6%:  nobody
  3.7%:  Wedge
  1.9%:  Leia's and Luke's son
  1.9%:  FtG
  1.9%:  Leia's and Han's son
  1.9%:  Won't know in R.o.t.J.
  1.9%:  Luke's father
  1.9%:  Lost relative of Luke
  1.9%:  Don't know
  1.9%:  Mr. Spock
  1.9%:  OB-2 Kenobi
  1.9%:  R2D2
  1.9%:  Luke's severed hand
  1.9%:  Obi-wan Kenobe
  1.9%:  "Other"==>"Luke gets another shot at success"

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jun 83 2247-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #24
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 24

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (12 msgs)















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 12:04:45-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!paw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ Question

     Has anyone else out there in newsland noticed a similarity
between Lucas's "Ewoks" (in RotJ) and H. Beam Piper's "Fuzzies" (of
LITTLE FUZZY, etc.)?

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jun 83 1:28:02-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!presby!burdvax!bmcjmp @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ

     Unfortunately, even though a special newsgroup has been created
for the Star Wars discussion topic, not all sites support the new
newsgroup. Please be tolerant of those who do not have access to the
net.movies.sw group, and be thankful that MOST of the Jedi stuff is
confined to its own group. (This is especially for you, Tim Maroney!
I'm tired of your complaining. Just because YOU don't think that Star
Wars stuff isn't SF doesn't mean it really isn't.  And remember, you
do have an "n" key. Nobody forces you to read anything!!!!)

Barb Puder, burdvax!bmcjmp (a site that does support net.movies.sw)

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 83 18:45:57 PDT (Sunday)
From: Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Possible physics bug in RotJ.

     In the rebels' holographic simulation (a beautiful effect), the
Death Star is shown in a geostationary (well, endorstationary) orbit.
It is also shown as being only a few Death-Star-radii from the
surface, and certainly less than one Endor-radius.

     There is a contradiction here.  For the stationary orbit to be
that close, either the planet spins in only a few hours, or it has
very light gravity.  The scenes on Endor's surface showed no evidence
of either of the above.

    Possible fixes: even when only partially operational, the Death
Star could levitate; or maybe the shield generating station also
provided levitation until the Death Star's engines came on line.  Or
maybe the planet did have very light gravity, but there was a
humongous mascon right under the shield station, providing "normal"
gravity in the immediate area.  Except that you would expect a lake to
collect...

  --- Jef

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 6 June 1983  00:10-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER @ MIT-EECS>
Subject: Purging Anakin's evil side in RotJ

     I like Byron's idea (V7 #20) that burning Vader's body released
him to join Obi-wan and Yoda in hologram land.  Watching carefully
tonight, I did notice that Anakin faded in after Yoda and Obi-wan in
the last scene.

     Did anyone else see them as a trinity?  The Father, the muppet,
and the Holy Ghost, perhaps?

                                        -- Roger

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 15:23:05-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihuxm!gjphw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Emperor's Death in RotJ

     One comment in net.sf-lovers said that Darth Vader killed the
Emperor to save Luke's life.  This is not consistent with the
presentation made in the RotJ book (available in paperback).  In the
book, it is made obvious that Vader is just waiting for an opportunity
to overthrow the Emperor and take over.  The Emperor's attacks on Luke
both keeps him occupied and drains some of his power so that Darth
sees a chance to act.  Darth is successful in the short run but loses
in the long run.

     In general, the book contains much more detail about the plot
than the movie does.  This must be in compensation for the difficulty
of presenting exciting special moviemaking effects in print.  Anyway,
a reading of the book may alter the interpretation of some scenes in
RotJ.

                                           Patrick Wyant
                                           Bell Labs (Illinois)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 11:41:58-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!jan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: net.movies.sw

Dear Ken

     We here at Ampex don't get net.movies.sw. I really miss reading
the useless and silly Star Wars discussions.

                                Jlc

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 1983 0101-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #20

     For answers to these, and many other queestions, read the novel.
It goes a bit more into dettail, and is better written than the
previous two.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 83 13:43:05-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Jedi Spoiler

     Well, it's time to start the roaring discussions going.  ROTJ was
a fine film, but not as good as the other two.  First, it was too busy
getting all the things done it had to, and second, it was not nearly
as imaginative.  There were no surprises.  So it's Leia - whoopdedo.
So Vader told the truth - tralala!  I may not have predicted these
things, but the reason I didn't was because they were too obvious, and
from TESB I got the impression Lucas liked the "Big Surprise".  So
here are some questions/comments:

     1) Was it really the way of a Jedi to do what Luke did to the
lovable Jabba the Hut?  There are many other ways he could have
rescued Han, the simplest being going in at night with his Jedi mind
powers, taking Han and leaving a suitable ransom.  Instead, he
confronted Jabba directly, knowing this would very probably lead to a
battle to the death.  Instead of destroying his ships and killing
Jabba personally, Luke could have had a ship ready to take them out,
or just flown them out with the force.  Regardless, what he did
smacked of revenge, and revenge is not the way of a Jedi, or else the
movie would have had a different title.

     2) Until you get to their city, the Ewoks are pure, 100% Fuzzy.
They even look like the fuzzies on the cover of my copy of Little
Fuzzy.  They carry the same weapons, and the only difference is that
their voices are not high enough in pitch.  Somebody suggested they
were the characters from "Earthman's Burden", but I don't agree.

     3) Why does a standard Imperial Throne Room include a
conveniently located reactor shaft?

     4) What extra power does the Emperor have that he can shoot blue
bolts from his fingers?  We have never seen the force ever do anything
like that before.  Just who is the Emperor anyway?  Is the force
strong in his family?  Is he a member of the Skywalker Clan?  Are the
Skywalkers like the Amber family?  What about Obi Wan's family.  I
guess that Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were not truly related to Luke.

     5) It's not hard to see how Vader killed the Emperor.  Young
those he was, Luke was no spring chicken with the force, and he was
able to beat Vader in a fair fight.  Thus it probably was quite an
effort for the old emp to put the blue bolts into Luke.  It sure took
him long enough to kill him.  Some might say he was doing this for
drama, but I doubt it.  I bet a normal man would be dead instantly
with one blue bolt.  The Emperor thus became weak enough that his iron
control over Vader broke.  Vader was then able to cast him into the
convenient reactor shaft.

     6) Why did Vader die?  what killed him?  Surely not the lost of
his mechanical hand. (Like father, like son!)  Nothing else visibly
was done.  Perhaps the Emperor was truly struggling with Vader as he
carried him.

     7) Of course if Vader had not died, then all kinds of neat things
could have happened.  Now good, and with the Emperor gone, he would be
the acting Emperor.  He could have managed the rebellion
single-handedly, turning the great power of the empire and the death
star over to the Jedi for peaceful use.  Instead, they blew up the
death star, which was quite a waste of equipment and otherwise
innocent lives.

     8) Where was Leia at her pappy's funeral?

     9) Will Han and Leia have a kid, and will that kid be the new top
Jedi?  I bet the force is with Han to some degree, he's such good
pilot and shot.

-- Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: 25 May 83 17:42:37-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!msdc!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Non-spoiler review of RotJ

     Winner. Perhaps not quite as crafty an ending as I had hoped, but
a reasonably satisfying ending.  I felt very good leaving the theater
(not because I was leaving, but because the movie was so good).

     I am afraid that the movie is possibly not suitable for very
young children; parents may wish to check it out ahead of time.  There
are some scenes which are a little violent and possibly scary for
young children.

     General consensus of 12 of us: 10 out of 10, possibly the best of
the three.  We are all going to go see it again before making any
critical analysis of plot or effects.  The overall feeling was good,
however.  The crowd for the first showing at Atlanta's Phipps theater
(the only Atlanta 70mm print) applauded and cheered many scenes
throughout the movie, and gave a standing ovation at the end. Of
course, some of these folks were die-hards who camped out all night to
be first in line.

     Bottom line: the film could have been a tremendous let-down after
the first 2 and all the attendant speculation.  It was not a let-down
-- it was a very pleasant experience. I would easily rate this a $6 or
even $8 movie -- even the second time around!


Gene Spafford

Spaf at GATech             (CS Net)
Spaf.GATech at UDel-Relay  (ARPA)                School of ICS
...!allegra!gatech!spaf    (uucp)                Georgia Tech
...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!spaf                   Atlanta, GA 30332

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 83 13:49:35-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!philabs!sdcsvax!sdchema!pha @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Bobba Fett

     You may not have noticed it, but as Han and Chewie were trying to
rescue Lando, you could see Boba Fett trying to fly out of the
monster, being held in by one of the 'tentacles' (which later tried to
pull Lando in).

     Then again - since Boba was covered head to foot with weapons,
why didn't he just blast the monster's tentacle holding him down?

                Rogue Vaxhacker
                ucbvax!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!ir278

------------------------------

Date: 4 Jun 83 15:18:12-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!we13!otuxa!ll1!sb1!sb6!emory!gatech!spaf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: View of Father (possible spoiler)

     The book states that Leia knew she was adopted, but didn't really
consider it much.  I have a few friends who were adopted, some at a
rather late age.  Their adoptive parents love(d) them and cared for
them as much or more than any biological parent.  It is very natural
for them to view their adoptive parents as real parents.  I'm sure
that the Princess didn't have a rotten childhood and thought very
kindly of her "parents."

"The soapbox of Gene Spafford"

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 83 3:22:20-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!jack @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

     True, Obi-wan, Yoda, and A. Skywalker did return, but in a
"read-only" fashion.  They seemed to be able to talk and that's about
it.  Besides, maybe only good people (D.V. barely made it) can return
and bad people go somewhere to be hassled forever.

                                        -Jack Applin IV
                                         (hplabs!hp-dcd!jack)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jun 83 2309-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #25
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 25

Today's Topics:
    Books - R.A. MacAvoy and Randall Garret and Vicki Ann Heyrone
     and David Eddings and Eileen Kerhaghan and Alan Dean Foster
                     and John Morressy (1 msg) &
      Gene Wolfe & Robert A. Heinlein and Issac Asimov (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 83 01:18:51 EDT
From: Dir LCSR Comp Facility <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: various random good books

     Now and then I feel the urge to mention some of the better books
I have read recently.  I hope people find this useful.

     R.A.MacAvoy, "Tea with the Black Dragon".  This is certainly the
best book on this list.  It falls into the category that I call
"civilized". By that I mean a book whose charactization and style add
to my appreciation of what it means to be human.  As this book has
been mentioned before, I will not summarize the plot again.  Formally
speaking, it is a sort of mystery story.  It involves magic, of a
sort, an ancient dragon, and the microcomputer subculture.  I found
its handling of technology convincing.

     Randall Garrett and Vicki Ann Heydron, "The Bronze of Eddarta".
This is actually the third book of a trilogy (and from the back cover
it looks like it may turn into more than a trilogy).  The first two
are "The Steel of Raithskaar" and "The Glass of Dyskornis".  These are
also eminently civilized books.  Starting with the first (which is
necessary, since the situation set up there is continued in all of
them): The protagonist suddenly wakes up in the middle of a desert,
having no idea how he got there.  It turns out that he died on earth
and somehow ended up in the body of a nearly-human race on an unknown
planet.  (At least we assume that this is the case.  It is at least
possible that it will turn out that this is earth in the far future or
past, and humanity has changed.)  Much of the plot flows from his
attempt to carry out the various obligations of the person whose body
he has replaced.  These include tracking down a thief with various
telepathic powers, and dealing with a military clan that considers him
their hereditary leader, but with whose ideals he disagrees.  Among
other interesting aspects of the books are: (1) its handling of age
differences.  The protagonist was in his 60's on earth, but ends up in
the body of a young man.  The authors clearly believe that age can
bring wisdom; (2) its handling of the relationship between certain
"humans" and the telepathic cats that are their partners and mounts.
The relationship is close enough that it is questionable whether
either will live after the other dies.

     David Eddings, "The Belgariad", of which there are so far 3 books
(out of a projected 5): "Pawn of Prophecy", "Queen of Sorcery",
"Magician's Gambit".  This is attempt to do the same sort of thing as
Tolkien. We have a small group undertaking a quest for a magical
object, with the power of evil growing and threatening to attack and
overwhelm the civilized world.  As in Tolkien, much of the charm of
the book is in the various groups of people (and other things) that
the travellers meet. That is, in the richness of the imaginary world.
The author has attempted to supply a long history, a mythology, a
reasonable amount of magic (but with a high enough cost for its use
that not all problems can be solved by a wave of the wand), and a
variety of cultures.  I haven't met anything else that seems quite as
attractive as Tolkien, but this is among the better attempts.  Like
many of you, I have gotten tired of a lot of this fantasy/quest
literature, but found this worth reading.

     Eileen Kernaghan, "Songs from the Drowned Lands".  This is the
story of a group of people living on an island, whose sorcerers have
forseen that a great tidal wave is going to come and wipe them out.
It consists of a number of portraits of various people in action. They
vary from sorcerers ranging from wise old people who try to save
things to the decadent sort who just want to live up their remaining
time in moderately evil ways, to more mortal adventurers of various
sorts.  Again, this sort of thing is not all that unusual, but it is
among the better pieces of work of its kind.

     Alan Dean Foster, "Spellsinger".  Here we have another quest lead
by a sorcerer, to find something needed to rescue a world from the
powers of evil.  It has a rather attractive collection of rogues and
moderately good creatures from a variety of species.  It has a
somewhat absent-minded magician.  It seems like it could easily be the
foundation of one the better sort of Disney movies. A bit less serious
than a lot of fantasy.  The only problem is that it turns out to be
the first part of a --olgy.  Nothing is said on the cover to indicate
that it is not complete.  I am not quite sure this will have enough
ideas to sustain a trilogy.  The purpose of this review is not so much
to recommend it as the best possible book as to warn you that if you
buy the book you shouldn't expect to find an ending to it.

     John Morressy, "The Mansions of Space".  I mention this book, not
because it is really one of the best books I have read, but because it
tries something that I find interesting, even if it doesn't completely
succeed.  We start with the good monks of the Monastery of the Holy
Sepulcher on the planet Peter's Rock.  They fled to Peter's Rock
centuries ago to escape persecution on earth.  They have been living
good monkish lives since.  At the beginning of the story, a ship
descends, and a "free trader" comes out to meet them.  It turns out
that they can do business.  Peter's Rock has a library of 25000
volumes, and a real book from Old Earth is nearly priceless.  In
exchange, the trader can take some monks as missionaries to preach to
the heathen.  The strength of the book is that it makes a real attempt
to look at what it would mean for these isolated monks to try to
preach to a galaxy that doesn't want to be preached to, and whose life
forms include beings whose cultures have features that are rather
shocking to their Christian sensibilities.  The rest of the book shows
how the missionaries, and the trader, deal with several of these
groups.  I found it interesting enough, and if you run out of classics
I certainly recommend the book as worth looking at.  But it does not
completely fulfill the promise of the first few chapters.  Somehow the
problems just seem to vanish.  Not all of the missions flourish.  But
mostly they just seem to preach and people (well, entities) are
converted.  Don't get the impression that this book looks like a
fundamentalist tract - it doesn't.  But the meeting of two cultures,
and the translation of important values from one to the other,
deserves more attention than it is given here.  Probably the best job
of dealing with these themes in SF remains Joan Slonczewksi's "Still
Forms on Foxfield", with honorable mention to Blish's "A Case of
Conscience" and Lee Killough's "A Voice out of Ramah".  (Of these,
Slonczewki's has the advantage of showing real spiritual depth,
although Blish deals accurately and sensitively with Catholic theology
and Killough does a good job with an imaginary almost-Christian group
of fanatics.)  Of course there are plenty of nonfictional accounts of
missionaries that could easily be turned into good First-Contact SF if
you changed the name of the planet. As I am sure you know, it is not
necessary to leave earth to find interesting alien cultures. (For an
example, if you aren't bothered by a bit of conservative theology,
take a look at Don Richardson's Peace Child.)

------------------------------

Date: 3 June 1983 06:37 EDT
From: Arturo Perez <ART @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Re:The shadow of the Torturer

     I'm sorry folks but I have to agree with Mclure on the Gene Wolfe
novel.  I tend to read to the end anything I pick up but I could not
finish Torturer.  I think the writing style was very bad and the story
didn't seem to be headed anywhere.  It was a waste of my time..

------------------------------

Date: 24 May 83 7:38:07-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ixn5h!dcn @ Ucb-Vax

     For those of you who don't subscribe to Analog, or missed Spider
Robinson's review of The Number of the Beast, here are a couple of
paragraphs from the May 1980 and November 9, 1981 issues.

... Adjectives I would apply to this book include
breathtaking, ground-breaking, mind-expanding, provacative, dense,
broad, daring, startling, exhuberant, informative, unconventional,
opinionated, mystifying, gleeful, ornery, imaginative, grand,
majestic, and deeply, genuinely moving.
...Here are some of the adjectives that the critics ... are going
to affix to the book, as sure as God made little green parking
tickets: opaque, self-indulgent, preposterous, rambling, turgid,
unstructured, baffling, boring, infuriating, arrogant, pretentious
and dull.
    So how do you know which set applies to you? ... Well it's like
this: with TNotB, Robert Heinlein has convened a stupendous Grand Ball
and Jamboree for all his good and true friends.  If you do not count
yourself among that number, this book is not addressed to you - in
which case you should read it because it will annoy the living hell
out of you.*
   A final surprise present for some of you.  Robert Heinlein has
given me permission to blow his cover here, and I can't resist using
it for a closer.
   This is for anyone who has read TNotB and failed to identify the
beast and understand what became of him.  If you are still wondering
who it is that sows the fictons with discord and strife, but fails to
do any lasting harm, and escapes unscathed at the end ... try
unsrcambling each of these aliases he uses.
   Here, I'll do a few for you.  "Neil O'Heret Brain."  Did the humor
of a professor named N. O'H. Brain distract you from the fact that his
name is an anagram for "Robert A. Heinlein"?  How about ranger Bennie
Hibol/Bob Heinlein?  Did you read "The Villains Nine Rig Ruin" as "Lt.
Virginia Heinlein USNR"?  Every name the beast uses is an anagram for
Robert or Virginia or one of his pen names.
   And so is revealed TNofB, as if the hint on pages 481-2 weren't
enough. ... The beast will be back.  As I write this, the beast is
even now teaching himself to use his new word processor ... by cutting
the completed draft of his new novel.* [Friday - ed]

*copied without permission from Analog or Spider Robinson.

     If you're interested enough to read the rest, back issues can be
purchased from Analog, or you can raid your local used bookstore.
Spider got out of the book reviewing business (sob), but Analog is
still a good buy.

                                        Dave Newkirk
                                        ihnp4!ixn5h!dcn

(Arlan Andrews, please don't turn me in for illegal reproduction)

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 83 19:00:39 EDT
From: Siggy (Alexander B. Latzko) <LATZKO@RU-GREEN>
Subject: various replies

     I have just caught up on the last two months of SF-lovers (my
pipeline was cut until RU-Green@Rutgers started getting it) and I must
reply as such.

     I was able to follow NOB until the last page, and the only one I
couldn't figure was who the mulit-dimensional was.  Ted Bronson was
Woodrow Smiths name in WW 1 .

     Actually I listened to a talk by Dr Asimov wherein he stated the
next book to come out by him was to be entitled "The Robots of Dawn".
He went on to state in all probability his next book after that would
relate the loose ends in "Foundations Edge" and the rest to the two
novels before robots of dawn (the first two in a trilogy anyone
remember the names the first had many people and few bots the latter
book).

     When asked what it should be called (trilogy tetrology et al) he
replied after some point <which they would get to> it should just be
called a SERIES..........


/S* (latzko%ru-green@RUTGERS)

ps If anyone is in the neighborhood on Friday May 27, 1983 Isaac
Asimov is the keynote speaker at the commencement ceremonies of Newark
College Of Arts and Sciences of Rutgers University.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  6 Jun 83 2340-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #26
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Monday, 6 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:
      Books - John Norman (3 msgs) & James Hogan & C.J. Cherryh,
                        Film - "SHE" (2 msgs),
                      Activities - SCA (2 msgs),
                   General Comment - Analog Author
             Re: Who reads the GOR books and WHY? (neff)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 1983 15:27:25 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Erik Sherman <esherman@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Re: Who reads the GOR books and WHY? (neff)

     I shall preface by saying that I have never read a "GOR" book and
am not attempting to defend them.

     Nevertheless, I question the vehemence displayed by the message's
author.  If Norman's views of women genuinely offend you, why do you
constantly return to skimming the books in bookstores?  Do you find
something particularly titilating, like the jurors who had to see an
x-rated movie multiple times to decide if it was obscene?

     Furthermore, the quote you present as the author's personal creed
is taken completely out of context.  Is it the author expressing his
own views?  Is it a bit of fictional characterization?  Readers of
your message cannot know.  I could as easily say that Harper Lee
advocates racism by culling selected quoted from "To Kill a
Mockingbird."  If you must critize someone's work, try to be fair.

Erik Sherman (esherman @BBNCCD)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 1983 13:20:08-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: re re who reads gor

     Apparently nobody in the current discussion has been around long
enough to remember the last time the topic came up. So, a little
history.

     Erik, the quote possibly-out-of-context you were complaining
about is if anything a very mild expression of Norman's philosophy.
The man is an avowed ethical naturalist, believing that whatever is,
is right; this isn't bad as long as you can determine what \is/ rather
than what you think you see. The quote is in fact entirely in context.

     John Norman is a philosophy teacher at City College of Queens
(?), NYC.  He doesn't strike people as being personally freaky; he
doesn't wear leather in the classroom and there are no spikes on the
gate outside his house. But he is an egomaniac of unbelievable
proportions.

     Even if you removed the vile philosophy (rather like a dentist
pulling out a rotted tooth), what would be left of a Norman book would
be drek.  The man has barely tolerable grammar and no sense of pacing,
character, or how to put a story together, and he refuses to permit
people with decades of professional experience to improve the
mechanics of his work. The first few Gor books came out from
Ballantine, but when he started to write longer and longer books on
the same thin vein of material they (Ian and Betty B) asked to cut and
reshape a bit and he took a walk. Don Wollheim doesn't fuss about the
content; he just pays and charges by the pound and counts the fistsful
of money the Gor books generate that allow him to take chances on
unknowns like Cherryh.

     Oddly enough, I do know at least two women who get off on
Goresque fantasizing, and neither one of them is a particularly meek
type when in public.

        CHip
                (Chip Hitchcock)
                ARPA: CJH@CCA-UNIX
                usenet: ...{!ucbvax,!decvax}!cca!csin!cjh

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 83 15:17:55-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Who reads the GOR books and WHY? (neff)

     The usual thing I hear about the Gor books is "I read the first
few, and they were OK, but I couldn't read the later ones."  In my
case, I couldn't read the first, couldn't understand why anyone would
want to, and hope never to read any of them as long as I live.

Tim Maroney

------------------------------

Date: 1-Jun-83 00:10 PDT
Subject: Anything new coming from JAMES HOGAN?

     Anyone know anything about future books from HOGAN?

Thanks,

--Bi<<

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 1983 13:28:17-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: MERCHANTER'S LUCK

     From internal evidence, takes place a modest number of years
after "DOWNBELOW STATION". "Le Cygne" might well have been one of the
ships attacked in the final convulsion of the Earth-based fleet, or it
might have been attacked by the remnants (Manzinists? Manzionists?)
after "Norway" joined the station to become a third force. You may
have been confused by similarities; one of the heroes of DS is Signe
Mallory, who appears peripherally in ML.  ,.

------------------------------

Date: Thu Jun  2 1983 18:18:18-PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: "She"

As far as I can tell, the new version of "She" is probably NOT
related to either of the earlier film versions.
I guess "She" is just a popular name for films.  If anyone has
any additional information about the new film by this name,
please inform the digest...

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 19:36:15-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!csu-cs!morganr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Want to live like your favorite characters?

     Since I assume Sci Fi includes fantasy, I'd like to mention a
group that many of you might be interested in: the Society for
Creative Anachronism.

     Generaly speaking, the SCA is a group of people who are never on
time...  often ending up in the wrong century.  It is a national,
non-profit, educational and recreational organization.  Not
surprisingly, many of the members (including myself) are fanatic
sf/fantasy fans.

     Our activities include tournaments, revels, feasts, guilds, and
demonstrations.  Included in this are costuming, fighting, cooking,
brewing, armor-making, blacksmithing, weaving and dying, heraldry,
painting, dancing, singing, and much more.  If you're interested in
the history (early renaissance and before) of almost any activity, you
will quite likely find others with a similar interest in the SCA.

     Not only does one learn alot, but the SCA is an awful lot of fun.
There is a delightful suspension of reality that allows people to
really let their hair down.  The SCA is escapism at it's best,
accompanied by numerous productive side affects.  (fighting gets one
into shape, etc. )

     If you want to know more WRITE ME!  I'd really like to hear from
anyone who is either interested in knowing more, or who is already a
member and would like to correspond.  I can be reached at

hao!csu-cs!morganr

Karl of Godelbach
Shire of Stonehaven (Fort Collins, CSU, and environs)
Principality of the Outlands (NM, CO, WY)
Kingdom of Atenvelt (NM, CO, WY, AZ, UT, NV? ID?)

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 83 22:45:45-PDT (Tue)
From: uw-beaver!tektronix!tekcad!keithl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Another Analog Author

     Arlan Andrews told us about his recent pieces in Analog magazine,
so I thought I'd come out of the closet, too.  I will have a 15 page
science fact (?) article in the December 1983 (?) Analog. The article
is about the Launch Loop, an electromechanical space launch system I
have been working on for some time.  The article was written on our
un*x/vax system; troff output sure helps get things past an editor!

     Writing seems to pay about $2 an hour, before taxes, even on
un*x.  However, given some of the massive works that have been
submitted to the net without pay, I would suggest some of you might
try submitting to a publisher (or dev/null!) instead.

     Correcting galleys now; Stan Schmidt's computer is an HP-31C
(hard to download to!).

Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!tekcad!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

   P.S. Bell Labs:  I would have credited UN*X in the article, if it
wasn't for all the trademark cruft I would have had to hang on it...

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jun 83 2213-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #27
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 27

Today's Topics:
                   Administrivia - Missing Issues,
                      Television - Space Cadets,
                       Science - Decompression,
                        Books - Issac Asimov,
                        Radio - S.F. Theatre,
                       Query - Star Trek Trivia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 83 22:08:56 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia



        Due to a misunderstanding of the Digest software, digests were
incorrectly numbered.  Issues #12, #19, #22 and #23 do not exist.
Hopefully, this won't occur in the future...

Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

From: "KERMIT::T_PARMENTER c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date: 21-DEC-1982 15:09
Subject: Space Request

     I received for Christmas some ancient space gear from cereal
boxes of the 50's, including a belt-buckle-badge from Buzz Corey's
Space Cadets.  Also in the package were three decoder-devices, all
marked "S Q".  Does anybody know what part of America's space forces
once bore a name with those initials?

PS--Just to complete any fan jealousy, the last item in the package
was a full-color pin attesting to membership in the Superman Muscle
Building Club.

------------------------------

From:   "STEVE LIONEL AT STAR c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 27-Dec-1982
Subject: The Dark Crystal

     I am, to put it mildly, dismayed at the negative comments
regarding "The Dark Crystal".  Unlike some of the reviewers, I enjoyed
it a great deal, and did not find it at all depressing.  I also didn't
find it boring to adults, as some reviewers have suggested.

     The plot line of Dark Crystal is extremely simple, but is similar
to other well-loved fantasy epics, as other SFL'ers have pointed out.
I didn't consider the plot important.  What did fascinate me was the
incredible imagination and detail that went into the design of the
world Jen and Kira travelled through.  Like Lucas in Star Wars, Henson
put significant effort into creating wierd and wondrous creatures that
we only saw for fleeting seconds.  Compared to many of those "extras",
the major characters seemed drab by comparison.  It was pointed out to
me that the land creatures were often modelled after the wierd things
one finds deep in the ocean.  I certainly wouldn't want to walk around
on that planet.

     Besides the creatures themselves, the remaining special effects
were tame.  Industrial Light and Magic got in there (of course!), but
they seemed to be responsible only for the thunderstorm effects that
didn't look convincing in Raiders of the Lost Ark.  The mechanical
detail of Aughra's planetarium, on the other hand, is a marvel!

     One of the things I liked best about Dark Crystal was its subtle
humor, along with minor references to other films.  My favorite line
is Kira's: She has just revealed to Jen a feature of her anatomy that
has proven useful (but I dast not say what...).  Jen, a fellow
Gelfling, says: "<Foo>?  I don't have <foo>!"  To which Kira replies,
"Of course not, you're a boy!"

     Another good scene is near the beginning, when two of the Skeksis
are going to fight it out to see who will be the new Emperor.  I can't
describe it without spoiling it, but it reminds me of Indy's "ultimate
swordfight" in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

     When Jen first met Aughra, whose nipples were indeed visible, I
was distinctly reminded of Luke's first encounter with Yoda.  (That
Aughra was played by Frank Oz probably has something to do with it,
although Oz didn't do Aughra's voice.  Still, Aughra did sound an
awful lot like Yoda and/or Fozzie Bear.)  I don't recall Aughra's
exact line, but it was very similar to Yoda's "Looking for someone?
FOUND someone, you have!"  Kira's Landstriders were quite reminscent
of Tauntauns.  And late in the movie is a scene I describe as "These
aren't the Mystics you're looking for."

     Early reviews I read indicated that there was enough violence to
earn the movie a PG rating, but that it was innocuous.  Indeed it was
- the most revolting thing to me was the Skeksis banquet!  (Ugh!)
Little kids in the audience when I saw it were laughing continuously.
In any event, "The Dark Crystal" is a movie that you should see at
least once, to wonder at Henson's Muppet wizardry.  I'd still like to
know just how some of those creatures were done.

                                                Steve Lionel

------------------------------

From:   "WALTER LAMIA AT BANZAI c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 28-Dec-1982
Subject: Decompression, explosive and otherwise

     One thing that this discussion seems to have neglected is the
assumption that our hapless astronaut would have to survive immediate
exposure to vacuum from *NORMAL EARTH SEA-LEVEL PRESSURE*, which is
about 14.6 psi (sorry, I don't know the equivalent in N/cm**2).  I
submit that normal spacecraft pressure would be somewhat lower than
that (before the Apollo fire, US spacecraft were pressurized with pure
O2 at 4-5 psi).  Furthermore, it the astronaut has any kind of
emergency relief valve, some of the pressure could be bled off into
space to allow a more "gradual" transition.

     Finally, note that training in rapid decompression emergency
procedures, from a pressurized aircraft cabin to about 80,000 ft,
which is a pretty fair vacuum, is part of normal military pilot
training, and I suspect also astronaut training.

%Walt

------------------------------

From:   "ANDY VESPER at EVE c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Foundation Edge trivia

     A number of people (Asimov included) have mentioned how many of
his earlier works have been referenced in Asimov's "Foundation's
Edge".  No one has mentioned a short story called "Green Patches".  In
this story (first published as "Misbegotten Missionary" in "Galaxy
Science Fiction" November 1950; I read it as "Green Patches" in
"Nightfall and other Stories" - Doubleday, 1969) Asimov describes
Saybrook's planet as having much the same type of life as he later
described Gaia in FE.  I wonder if the good Doctor forgot about this
story himself?  If they are related, I see they finally got rid of
those tell-tale green patches.  (Or maybe not, we don't see much of
the planet, and the people we do see might be robots.)

     Have many SF authors been combining a lot of their earlier work
in the same manner as FE?  Heinlein, of course, did it so thoroughly
in "The Number of the Beast" that he included everybody's works,
present and future.

     Someone asked about a Heinlein short story about a man who is his
own mother and father.  This is "All you Zombies", and it ranks as one
of his classical time travel stories (the other being "By His
Bootstraps").  I still sometimes wonder where DID all the rest of us
come from?

------------------------------

From:   "KENNETH GOUTAL at ELMO c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Science Fiction Theater

     Does anyone remember this show?  Early sixties, I think, but that
may have been syndicated reruns, at that.

     I remember they explored some pretty far-out ideas, by means of
non-serialized half-hour segments.

     Anybody remember if any now-well-known actors played on it?

------------------------------

From:   "KENNETH GOUTAL at ELMO c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: "... a beach to walk on ..."

     Somehow, I remember an episode of Star Trek in which the above
phrase was used by Kirk.  I believe he was quoting some "20th century
poet" or some such.  I think it was in some episode where some
nuclear- holocaust-type self-destruction awaited (or even befell) some
planet, such that at the end of the show, he was moved to paraphrase
it as "... *no* beach to walk on ...".

     There is the possibility that this was not even a Star Trek
episode, but it would have been about the same time.

     Does *anybody* remember this???  I have been waiting lo these
many years for an opportunity like this digest to try to get some rest
about this!  Whatever the poem fragment was, it touched me (a
sensitive teen) at the time, and has bugged me ever since.  Never in
all the umpteen reruns have I seen it again.

     Help!

------------------------------

From:   "B_LYNCH at WIZARD c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subj:   Peter Davison as The Doctor

     I've noticed it mentioned in several places that the current Dr
Who is played by Peter Davison. Question: Is this the same actor who
appears in "All Creatures Great and Small" in the role of Tristan
Farnon (sp?). If so, I for one will probably have trouble adapting to
him as the Doctor (having only seen Tom Baker's interpretation).

     Has anyone out there actually seen the shows with Davison? How
does he fare?

     Also, does anyone know if the current series showing on WGBH in
Boston will continue past the tenure of Baker (currently ending in a
few weeks, I understand)?

-- Bill

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jun 83 2220-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #28
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 28

Today's Topics:
   Books - Janny Wurts & Joe and Jack Haldeman & E.E. "Doc" Smith &
                         Robert A. Heinlein,
               Movies - The Last Unicorn & Time Rider,
                         Music - S.F. Music,
                           Television - "V"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "ISHTAR::FELDMAN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Date: 14-JAN-1983 10:41
Subject: book review

     "THE SORCERERS LEGACY" by Janny Wurts is a really good book which
I have read recently.  (She is a friend of mine, so this is potentialy
non-objective, however it is a super book) Published by ACE, it is her
first novel in print.  It is a story of a woman who is rescued by a
sorcerer from a war ruined land just after her husband has been
murdered.  She is taken by him to a land in a far off time and place
to be the wife of a prince who has been made steril by black magic.
She is pregnant by her dead husband, but her virginity is restored by
white magic.  Thus she will be used to establish his virility.  This
must be done lest he be killed according to local custom regarding non
viril princes.  All this (and more) is established in the first 20
pages.  The plot thickens and develops.  It is a battle between the
good sorcerer, who dies in the first 20 pages rescuing the heroine,
and an evil sorcerer who is around for the whole book.  (You have to
read the book to see how this happens).  Character development in the
book is first rate.  The Heroine is a spirited young woman with a
spicy toungue that the rather effete court of her adopted land finds
difficult to accept.  The Evil sorcerer Faisix is a portrait of cold
hearted disdain for life, goodness and warmth.  Then there are other
sorcerers who because of their basic goodness and optimisim nearly
fail.  Scheming, but fopish courtiers figure prominently.  Janny
skilfuly misleads us into changing aliances with all the characters,
which adds to the fun.

     Janny is also an illustrator.  Though sadly, her work is not in
the book (stupid ACE).  Her talent for the visual arts is very
apparent in the vivid descriptions in the book.  Very notable are the
Magic battles between sorcerers.  She will be at BOSCONE along with
her art work, she is well worth meeting.

     I will gladly submit to whatever tortures are saved for inacurate
reviewers should anyone on the network not like this book.

------------------------------

From:   "SCHOFIELD AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: More music

     I just got (would you believe it?) about 2k blocks of sfl
practically overnight and so have mucho random notes to toss out...

     First, concerning the recent(?) discussion of "space rock"/"sf
rock". This discovery pleased me very much, not only due to the fact
that I (like millions of others) enjoy good music but also because I
feel that sf need not be confined to the printed page. Granted, the
term "science fiction" specifies literature by definition, but the
essence of science fiction ( call it foresight?) can be captured by
any medium. Indeed, in order for the ideas and imagination inherent in
sf to be fully expressed one MUST look to various media for
expression.

     I am somewhat disturbed by the groups being offered up in the
list here as "sf" rockers. Some of the names (Joe Schmo's Bubbloo
band) give me pause to wonder if the music industry (insofar as sf is
concerned) is not suffering from a singular lack of taste and
sophistication.  In all fairness, I've never heard most of the music
of these bands but it does appear as though the examples being given
are holdovers from the "psychedelic era" of "acid rock". (To digress
for a moment: has anyone ever determined the average age of SFL
readership? Where we all have a love of sf in common, we also have a
language in common but that does not preclude a certain amount of
generation gapping...?)

     In light of these observations, I would like to put forth for
your consideration this list of bands/songs from the past 5-10 years
and see what sort of reaction I provoke:

YES

     This band was one of the types which had a large and devoted
following yet in 11 years of playing together had only two major
top-40 hits and one or two more minor radio successes even though they
sold over a million copies of every album they ever made...  The songs
I liked the best (in terms of sf-relevance) are:

SONG             ALBUM          COMMENTS
ARRIVING UFO'S   TORMATO        Interesting departure from the little-
                                green men mentality of much sf music.

CIRCUS OF HEAVEN TORMATO       What does a small town do when an
                               extra-dimensional carnival comes to
                               town? Get in line, of course!

MACHINE MESSIAH  DRAMA          Outstanding musical representation
                                of the classic man-machine conflict.

RUSH

     A band which has been around for some time but only recently
emerged from the head-banger hard rock cucoon in which so many bands
begin careers. A three man band with a true feel for sf and the
ability to make a song/story come alive through music:

SONG        ALBUM       COMMENTS
2112        2112         A 25-minute opus based on a story
                         by Ayn Rand. A true sf story-in-
                         music. A must.(If you can get past
                         the sqeaky voice of the lead singer,
                         Geddy Lee).

CYGNUS X-1  FAREWELL TO  Everything Disney's BLACK HOLE
            KINGS        should have been (but wasn't) and
                         then some!


     Well, how about it? Any flames for me? Anybody out there with the
same tastes?

                Rick (The Minstrel) Schofield

P.S. In volume 6 Issue 101, Jim Heliotis mentions a Yes song based on
the Foundation Tetrology. I thought I knew every Yes song upside down
and backwards and I don't see where any fit that
description...comments?

------------------------------

From:   "SCHOFIELD AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Time Rider

Moderator: This is a big spoiler...beware!


     I just saw Time Rider the other day and the story line raised a
question which my friends and I have been trying to resolve and I
would like to enlist the aid of the rest of you in the debate. Of
course, the nature of the question is the good ol' time travel
paradox. Here is the outline of the problem:

     1) I inherit a necklace from my great-great...(n+1) grandmother.
She recieved it from a man with whom she fell in love. She only spent
a night with him (from which,it is rumored, she began her matriarchy)
but he gave her the necklace before he left.

     2) I, with my necklace, travel back through time to said
great-----grandma's era.

     3) I meet a girl and fall in love with her but have to return
back through time soon (get the picture?) Yup, she takes the necklace
from me and thus rather than kill my own grandfather, I AM my own
grandfather!

     Question 1: Where did the necklace originally come from? It must
have been created somewhere/when!

     Question 2: More importantly, where did I come from? We are
suffering from a severe case of the closed-loop-blues.

     Any comments or help of any kind?

     Also, while you are thinking up arguments, are there any good
strong (i.e. useful) arguments to be used in favor of the notion that
high-tech automation will provide more and better jobs that it
displaces? The debate rages on and I find myself on the short end.
Help!

     Some random notes...

     I've been noticing lately the use of special symbols to denote
various degrees of emphasis and/or inflection to be added to the text
enclosed by said marks.  Things like =~ or :=) etc. appear to mean,
respectively, flame on/off and tongue-in-cheek(?). Am I way off? I
hate to feel left out of these little ditties.

     Does anyone know when the fabled reprints of the Lensman and/or
Skylark of Space series are going to show up in the Boston area? I
heard something about the reprint months ago but time hazes all
memories...

     Speaking of the Dark Crystal...does anyone else hold my opinion
that one of the best possibilities for the Lord of the Rings/Sword of
Shanarrah films would be to "Muppetize" them?

     And speaking of The Last Unicorn (we were weren't we?) although
the story was good and the actors were notable, nothing short of magic
could save such two-dimensional animation. It wasn't even
two-dimensional cum Japanese art, it was just a lazy attempt at
three-dimensionality...I was very disappointed.  (But the what can you
expect of DePatie/Freeling who, in their infinite tastelessness, cast
Kasey Kasem as the voice of one of the dwarves(hobbits?)  in their
abortive effort at Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit (it was a while ago).


                        That's all for now...
                            Rick Schofield
                            19 Old Coach Rd.
                            Hudson N.H. 03051
                            (feel free to write)

------------------------------

From:   "SCHOFIELD AT MERLIN c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: J&J Haldeman's There Is No Darkness

     I just finished reading "There Is No Darkness" by Joe and Jack
Haldeman (anyone know what if any relation between the two?). The
cover has it billed as "SPACE CADET ala Haldeman". Well, I don't
remember "Space Cadet" that well but if memory serves, then this book
is a "close but not quite".

     The story is basically a space opera in which the hero has many
adventures and sees many strange things in his travels. It is very
light (mostly) and it moves the way any adventure story does but...

     This story bears the same mark that so many recent novels do, the
story that was put together for the sake of paying the rent.  The book
is very episodic and all the parts deal with the same characters and
the same universe, but all the same, the whole book seems more
fragmented than an episodic-type novel should. The characters seemed
to develop in leaps and bounds without much stimulus to justify such
development. The episodes were good and the action was fierce, but the
disjointed feeling of the story detracted from its overall
effectiveness.

     These stories were originally published in Issac Asimov's SF
magazine in '82 with titles something akin to "Starschool" and
"Starschool on Hell". As a serial they probably did very well, but as
a book... well, let's just say that I felt a little cheated. Probably
because the cover and inside page promised something that the book
didn't deliver.

     This also is something I have noticed lately, that the blurbs on
the covers don't always refelct the contents of the book.  (i.e. Poul
Anderson's "The Gods Laughed"). Has anyone else noticed this or am I
just paranoid?

------------------------------

From:   "STEVE LIONEL at STAR c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: "V", Heinlein

     It's good to see SF-LOVERS back!  I'm sure it will take a while
to clean up the loose ends from 4-month old messages...

     About "V": In general, I thought it was above average TV SF fare.
That's not saying much (see "Space 1949", "Cattlecar Galactica",
etc.), but it was definitely watchable.  However, I think it's a waste
of time to try to judge "V" purely as an SF show, what with sending
NBC a list of technical errors and whatever.  I thought that "V" was
very clearly an up-to-date version of "Holocaust", with the alien/Nazi
and scientist/Jew allegories all too obvious.  Did you notice that the
aliens' "logo" was similar to a swastika?

     "V" succeeded quite well at bringing across the point that "Yes,
this indeed COULD happen in today's world".  Just like ABC's showing
of "Holocaust" a few years back opened the eyes of many; "V" will make
a lot more people think about persecution.

     I also noticed the clip of the alien girl undressing being shown
three times; amazing as to how those reptiles still need
"Cross-your-heart" bras, etc!  As to whether or not "V" will become a
series, the answer now appears to be "no".  Although it got wonderful
ratings, NBC has decided it would be too expensive to put on as a
weekly show.  Perhaps a few "specials" may show up next year, though.
All in all, I'm glad that NBC tried it; it was definitely watchable.

     About Heinlein: RAH hasn't written anything decent since "The
Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "Glory Road".  "Friday" is trash, and
"Number of the Beast" is worse.  I went all through this last
December, so I won't rekindle the flame, but I don't hold out much
hope for any future greatness from Heinlein.

                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jun 83 2240-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #29
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 29

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (8 msgs)

















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 83 23:32:56-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!vax135!ee163ht @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ "review" - SPOILER!

     I saw the movie last Friday, and I must admit, although I liked
it a great deal, the ending left a great deal to be desired.  I
thought it was just *too* happy and too predictable, with the good
guys winning (with little or no harm done - except for a few Ewoks)
and the bad guys all dying.  Be serious, George!  At least some of the
stars should have lost their lives in the battle to save the rebels.

                                        Allyn Fratkin
                                        UC San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 83 9:26:35-PDT (Mon)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!mhuxm!pyuxi!pyuxvv!brt @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Reactor Shaft (SPOILER)

     1. The throne room is at the top of a very tall tower (we
actually get to see the tower once). The elevator (which DV uses all
the time) runs inside (or at least along) the wall of the tower.
There is plenty of space left for the shaft.  Why a shaft?  For the
Emperor to draw power for those blue bolts, of course! It takes a good
deal of power to punch through the air (with the greatest of
ease....there, I just couldn't resist it....).

     2. The force doesn't seem to care all that much for blood
relationships.  Yes, I know, Luke, Leia and Anakin and all that sort
of thing.  But guess what folks, Uncle Owen is O-W-K's brother!!!!!
(read the book carefully).  That tiny bit of wisdom is disclosed by
Obi-Wan himself in the scene right after Yoda's death, if I remember
correctly....

     Now back to my real work....

                        Ben Reytblat (...!pyuxvv!brt)

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 83 09:23 EDT
From: Heiny.henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #24

     Here are some questions/comments on your questions/comments:

     "Was it really the way of a Jedi to do what Luke did to the
lovable Jabba the Hut?"

     A: No, it wasn't, but Luke was slipping slightly towards the Dark
Side, and this was approved Dark Side-ish behavior.  Clues as to the
slip: Black wardrobe, hiding face in hood, glowering, threats,
unecessary use of the force.  If Luke had not been slipping toward the
Dark Side to begin with, he would have had a much easier time of it in
the Throne Room scene.

     "Why does a standard Imperial Throne Room include a conveniently
located reactor shaft?"

     C: I would guess that the Emperor is not a regular visitor to
Death Star type installations, especially unfinished ones, thus making
throne rooms an unneeded addition to the battle station.  When the
Emperor showed up, he was probably fixed up with a room with a view,
and construction was moved to the other side of the ship.  Since the
area where the Emperor is holding court is apparently unfinished
(scaffolding abounds for people to dodge around and jump on in
fights), perhaps the door/lid/extension of the reactor shaft has not
yet been installed.  What bugs me is: if Darth and Luke can fly, why
didn't the Emperor?

     "Why did Vader die?  What killed him?  Surely not the lost of his
mechanical hand. (Like father, like son!)  Nothing else visibly was
done.  Perhaps the Emperor was truly struggling with Vader as he
carried him."

     C: Yes, the Emp did struggle with Vader: blue/violet worms are
seen crawling on Vader while/after he tosses the Emperor down the
tube.  One thing that no one has mentioned so far is the Emperor's
betrayal of Vader: the Emperor tells Vader that Luke will come around
to "us" (not an Imperial singular "us": he uses "I" and "me"
consistently), but when Vader is on the edge of defeat, the Emperor
encourages Luke to finish Vader off and take his place.  Could Vader
have been a bit disgruntled when he threw the Emp in?  When the
Emperor first urged Luke to "strike me down", did he know Vader would
step in to protect him?  Or was he counting on an ObiWan type
transubstantiation?

     "Instead, they blew up the death star, which was quite a waste of
equipment and otherwise innocent lives."

     C: I don't think they knew that the big E and Vader had died.

     Finally, is it safe to assume info in the novelization is valid?
I think there was a message some months ago about Lucas saying he and
the movies were the only accurate sources.

                                Chaotically Yours
                                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 7 June 1983  11:22-EDT (Tuesday)
From: David H. Kaufman <SR.KAUFMAN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: Jedi Spoiler

    Date: 3 Jun 83 13:43:05-PDT (Fri)
    From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton at Ucb-Vax
    Re:   Jedi Spoiler

    . . .

    9) Will Han and Leia have a kid, and will that kid be the new top
    Jedi?  I bet the force is with Han to some degree, he's such good
    pilot and shot.

     Of course the force is with Han!  Didn't anybody notice that,
still half blind with ``hibernation sickness'', he shot the
tongue/tail thing that grabbed Lando?  Now THAT'S what I call a good
shot!

     Seriously, though, there are so many things wrong with the movie
and especially the Jabba sequence, that I begin to wonder if Lucas has
lost his touch or just his perspective.  What if R2D2 had been sent to
the salt mines??

     I enjoyed the movie anyway.

        David Kaufman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jun 83 09:50 PDT
From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Darth Vader, bad guy (SPOILER!!!)

     One thing that bothers me about RotJ.

     In ANH, Darth Vader was the altimate bad guy, evil to the core.
I don't even recall any reference to a superior evil (the emperor).

     In TESB, even though we are introduced to Darth's superior, via
hologragh (hologram?), Darth still stands out as the altimate bad guy.
Not until the last few minutes of the movie do we suspect that there
may be a touch of good in him ("Join me Luke.  Together we can destroy
the Emperor and bring order to the galaxey").

     Then, like all of a sudden, in RotJ, Darth is second banana to
the Emperor who is now the ultimate bad guy.  We are no longer alouded
the satisfaction of booing Darth and cheering Luke.  Instead, we find
ourselves booing the Emperor and cheering Anakin (turn to the good
side!, turn to the good side!).  I admit it was a suprising twist of
events, but think I would rather have cheered for Luke as HE destroys
Darth Vader.  After all, this middle trilogy of Star Wars is about
Luke Skywalker and his great "destiny".

     If the story would have stuck with Luke vs Darth and Luke
winning, it could have saved the rebels vs the emperor for the final
trilogy.

                                        Toby

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 1983 17:07:46-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: RotJ (non-spoiler)

     A number of spoilers have declared that one or another facet of
the story becomes "clearer" if you read the book. It's been stated
several times in this digest that Lucas refuses to be bound by
anything that does not appear on film---books, comix, toys, whatever.

     In general, referring to a book to explain a film is a bad idea.
The average film supports about 90 book pages (classic example:
GOODBYE COLUMBUS). Longer works must be dismembered for filming;
standard films must be heavily padded to justify book publication. The
author will take cut-out pieces, background material (which may or may
not stil be applicable)---anything heesh can get hold of for material.
(If you want to waste several hours in idle speculation, try to figure
out where all the extra material in Vonda McIntyre's STAR TREK: THE
WRATH OF KHAN came from.)

------------------------------

From: "KEN MOREAU AT CLOSUS c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Subject: Star Wars observations

     I think people are missing a very major point about the entire 3
trilogy concept of Star Wars, which significantly influences the
choice of the "other".

     Given everything that has been said by Lucas and company, it is
fair to say that each trilogy concerns a generation of characters.
Episodes 4, 5, and 6 deal with Luke, Leia, Han, and an older Darth and
Obiwan.  Episodes 1, 2, and 3 show the young Obiwan and Darth
(including how Obiwan trained Darth, and how Darth was seduced to the
Dark Side), with maybe a side trip into the Clone Wars.  Episodes 7,
8, and 9 will (hopefully) show the Rebellion defeating the Empire, and
bringing an end to what Obiwan calls "the dark times".  The only
"continuing" character among all episodes is Yoda, since he has
certainly been around for the first trilogy, and there is nothing to
suggest he won't be around for the next one.

     Given these points, and given that the most enjoyable way of
creating a new generation of characters is the old-fashioned way, I
suggest that the "other" is a new character who has not been
introduced yet, and that (surprise) it is FEMALE!  She and Luke will
meet, maybe combine to destroy Darth, and then get it on to produce
the next generation which will eventually (in episodes 7, 8, and 9)
destroy the Empire.

                                                        Ken Moreau

------------------------------

From:   "PAUL KARGER at ULTRA c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 30-May-1983
Subject: Comments on RotJ - SPOILER WARNING

SPOILER WARNING!  SPOILER WARNING!

     I just saw RotJ and was bothered by several points.

     1.  The film did not explain how Leia could become a Princess if
she was adopted.  The book version does explain this, however.

     2.  When shuttle craft land on the Death Star (twice), the
landing bay is clearly open to space, yet the troops lined up for
review have no trouble breathing.  If there is an invisible force
field keeping in the atmosphere, there is no mention of it in either
the book or the film.

     3.  How is it that Vader did not notice that Leia was "strong
with the force" or adopted for that matter, when she was being
interrogated in SW IV?  He had plenty of time to work, she was
drugged, and was tortured.

------------------------------

From:   "STEVE LIONEL at STAR c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
Posted-date: 01-Jun-1983
Subject: RotJ (no spoiler)

     It's good to see SF-LOVERS back!  I'm sure it will take a while
to clean up the loose ends from 4-month old messages...

     About "Return of the Jedi": I purposely avoided all spoilers
before seeing the film, and found that my enjoyment increased.  Funny,
though, how the solutions Lucas did pick matched some of the more
predominant speculation here in SFL a couple of years back.  I also
went back and read the Time article; it only gave away one significant
plot element.

                                        Steve Lionel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  7 Jun 83 2251-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #30
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 7 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 30

Today's Topics:
                    THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (1 msg)










----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 7 Jun 83 14:33:38-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Jedi comments

[The following contains a collection of observations and comments
regarding the Return of the Jedi that I thought I'd share with the
whole sf-lovers list. Please forgive the somewhat disjoint nature of
some of the paragraphs, these were written over the days since the
movie opened and reflect both observations on it, but on the sales
blitz that has accompanied it.]

     I thought this one was less surprising than the others, some of
the scenes were more routine than innovative.  ....  Anyhow... It
wasn't that bad. I felt a certain nostalgia leaving the theater. I
liked seeing more of Leia (was that a birth mark I saw when she turned
about, located on her right back. Dunno.) Strangling Jabba with his
own chain was certainly a woman's Lib symbolic act. Yeah, I do
agree--he used a lot of things again. Opening shots, Death Star, R2D2
working the combination at a critical moment--there was a strong sense
of, these characters are all defined now, each has its role to play,
and its tricks to show off--run them through like a circus act. Han
Solo actually said it best in the movie... He and Luke are running,
and he asks, "Hey Kid, How are we doing?" and Luke answers, "About the
same as usual"; with Hans saying, "That bad, eh"

     The critters at the beginning weren't all I'd hoped. The blue
elephant organ player looked a little like a soft sculpture rather
than a real critter. Snoot didn't look functional in any animal sense.
Some of the others looked equally implausible, stuffed animals--not
real ones. I expected credits to the Kroft puppeteers.

     It was a messy movie. The action was forced, rather than novel
and sustained. Lots of busy work. It did answer a lot of questions
though--leaving some new ones. One thing which I find curious is
Luke's grasp of the force. He seemed unable in several cases to use it
on lower animals--whereas Obi Won seemed to be able to charm the
beasts well enough.  Do we know any more about Jabba? He certainly was
a separate species. Darth Vader as Dark Father was, now, obvious in
the extreme. Your question as to why Vader dealt with Leia differently
during her torture seems to hold up. She was not only his
daughter--though he didn't know it, but she possessed some rudiments
of the Force, maybe (we don't know anything about the female use of
the force--it might be a sex-linked trait, passed through but not
given to the females).

     So. Vader lost his arm in a dual with who? The emperor? What was
all that before about falling into a volcano? Can you duel with
yourself and fall into a volcano? (mentioning the previous info we had
about Vader and why he was in his iron lung). Who was the actor that
played Vader in the end... I didn't seem to see him in the credits.

     Are Ewoks H.Piper's Little Fuzzies? The NYTimes thought Lucas was
arguing against technology as our final salvation--since the Ewoks
saved the day with spear points and wooden logs.

     I throughly enjoyed the walkers. They are, in fact, something
which the military is looking into. They were new and innovative. The
forest sleds were bizarre. I couldn't decide whether they had
automatic obstacle avoidance or not.  They did seem rather accident
prone. You can take the car races out of the movie, but not out of the
director. Lucas indulged himself with those.

     Those were new uniforms for the officers, black this time, not
military drabs.

     I gather at the end that only Luke can see the dead Jedi...  And
they do seem to take delight in dying when he is around.  I wonder if
they are actually INSIDE Luke's head, mind, spirit, etc. Perhaps they
merge into him upon death? One does wonder how they get about the
galaxy. Do they hitch rides on spaceships? Are they everywhere? or are
they only around Luke. That seems to be it.

     The ending, with ANOTHER Death Star explosion was trite. I could
have written THAT plot.

     ... The reactions I hear from folks out here are varied.  Most
seem to have liked it. I suspect only the hard core finds it a
disappointment... Sort of like the James Bond movies. They peaked with
Goldfinger for me and have been silly since then.

     I read a review in Newsweek. It seemed right on target.
Surprising how the news magazines have been right about these
films--contrary to the critics.

     I saw a window of merchandising stuff today. Most of the
magazines are carrying flimsy stories. There is a biography of Lucas
out as well in hardback, by somebody with a name like Powell. 1st
poster as folded issue of magazine.

                            ....

     I think there are two levels on which we can approach the movie.
There IS the basic plot. Not much was actually wrong with the plot. It
was clearly an answer to the 2nd movie.  Resolved all the dilemmas
with some degree of sensibility.  Then there was the actual movie's
interpretation of the plot. That was racked by all manner of
annoyances which interefered with the SW traditions--sort of as if the
Kroft puppeteers had made the movie. In the reviewers words it was a
"Muppet Movie". Finally, there was the special effects.  Some were as
rewarding as anything in the previous films.  Memorable are shots such
as the arrival of Darth Vader's tri-wing into the new Death Star.
Beautiful filigree of elements including tiny touches such as the
approach, the scale shots were perfect, the small aperature of the
opening which loomed large upon approach, the vast cavern inside the
Death Star II, the slick floor, the business in the background
including things like welding sparks, etc. The walkers on the planet
were also beautiful. The forest looked fine, combining elements of
actual redwood country with things that must have been specially made.
The gravi-sleds (what are they called?) were also fine--though like
the storm trooper's "armour", I fail to understand the Empire's
technology--it just doesn't seem to be safe or to work well.  Dropping
rocks on them knocks them out? The sleds were extremely dangerous from
what I could tell. The walkers were easy to overturn and seemed to
LIKE to blow up when they fell down. However, I didn't doubt the
reality of what I saw in these scenes at all. I also liked the bridge
of the Death Star where the Emperor sat. The circular (non-functional,
alas) rings of blue panels were effective. The emperor's make-up was
OK. They had to use some effect to show his consumption with the dark
side of the force; and the red-eyes with pale atrophied skin did it
well--something like a drug addict's look.

     I felt the FORCE was well treated. It completed the aspects of
dark and light in a nearly perfect Yin/Yang aspect. It was also tied
to emotions on BOTH sides. Hate, Anger, Vengence evoked the Dark
side---and presumably the Emperor could use their evocation to infuse
his emphasis on Luke, like giving drugs to someone, it would have
become involuntarily addictive. The Light side of the Force was also
evoked by emotions. Luke's burst of effort evoked by his love for Leia
and the suggested threat against her being turned to the Dark side;
Luke's summoning of the father-child love to turn Vader back.

     The movie may have been a poor execution or interpretation of the
SW epic--but the plot wasn't that bad. I even think there is reason to
suppose that Lucas made the plot up BEFORE he was turned to the Dark
side of the Force of money--and gave in to those begging for more
merchandisable muppet toys in the film, more cuteness, more
salability.

                            ....

     Did I mention the two special effects I thought were clearly poor
quality. One was the flame that came out of Jabba the Hutt's Land
Barge when it was burning and before it exploded. Looked like a Bunsen
Burner sized flame. Wrong Scale. The other was the explosion of the
satellite-dish-like ground station for the Death Star II's force
field. It wobbled like a plastic bowl before collapsing. I don't think
it should have.

     The local bookstores are having a field day out here. I've now
seen three window displays with all the works. There is a blank
diary-like notebook with a cover indicating it is a Jedi notebook in
which one is to put all the important things one learns on the way to
becoming a true Jedi.

     The Portfolio of prints is quite attractive. They seemed quite a
bit better than Empire. The Sketchbook looked unimpressive. The is
also an "illustrated" larger-size version of the book with some
drawings in it, didn't look esp. worthy. Burger King has glasses for
Jabba the Hutt et al.

     I think one thing which happened to Lucas was that there were all
these deals made prior to completion of the film.  There was no
question that the film had to be ready for release by a certain date.
It must have been awful. "No, we can't reshoot that special effect, it
would take 3 more days and we don't have 3 days to spare"

     The Dark Side of the Force exacts a heavy toll on its followers.

                            ....
     The review in the New Yorker is worthwhile reading. May 30th,
1983.  The reviewer blames the director, Richard Marquand, for losing
all the inherently fantastic moments available in the movie. He notes
that Luke's confrontation with Darth and the Emperor was at least as
full of potent as a scene from Hamlet--and that Marquand's direction
squanders all the plot potential.
                            ....

     I think JEDI has been a success so far because it is receiving
the credits from the first two movies. It is LIKE those movies from
the point of view of what appears on the screen--If they intercut
scenes from the Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars with those of Return
of the Jedi you would be hard pressed to say where they were from. The
problem is that in Jedi the emotional content of the story is lost.
It's played as though the audience didn't CARE about the deeper
tones--the fatal flaw, a kid's movie made by adults who don't think
kid's have discerning viewing capabilities.

     I'd really like to know what some kids say about the movie.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date:  9 Jun 83 1909-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #31
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Thursday, 9 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (14 msgs)





















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue 7 Jun 83 20:49:31-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <G.FIGMO@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: RotJ and who gets to be a hologram

Address: 725 Mariposa Ave. #103; Mountain View, CA 94041
Phone: (415) 968-1052

     If every "good" person who died appeared in holograms, Luke's
aunt and uncle, not to mention all those Rebellion fighters, would
have appeared with Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin.  If it were the case that
one must be a Jedi knight in order to die and turn into a hologram,
Luke would've had to deal with a horde of dead Jedi holograms.
Therefore, the only ones who could appear as holograms would have to
be people Luke knew during his lifetime who were Jedis and died
"good."  This would explain why the Emperor wouldn't show up in Luke's
holograms.

--Lynn

P.S.--In spite of its flaws, I enjoyed the movie.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 83 16:47:19-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!karn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Possible physics bug in RotJ.

     Gee, I'm ashamed that I didn't catch that one too.  The Death
Star was obviously Endor-stationary because it had to sit within the
stationary beam of the force field station.  I suspect that it was
"levitated" by the force field; that means that they didn't have to
blow it up, it would just have crashed on the planet surface when the
force field was destroyed!

Phil

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 83 15:35:20-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!bch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Jedi Spoiler

     Vader died because his life support system got zorched by The
Emperor.  I thought this was one of the weakest moments of the film.
His normally stentorious automatic breathing apperatus developed a
definite hitch and a squeak which almost made me laugh out loud.

                        Byron Howes
                        UNC - Chapel Hill

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 83 23:47:55-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!eagle!karn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Possible physics bug in RotJ.

     Come to think of it, I have a (weak) piece of evidence for my
earlier assertion that the Death Star was not in stationary orbit but
was rather being held up by the force field: the existence of gravity
on the station!  (Of course, I know of no Star Wars sequences
featuring zero gravity, so...)

Phil

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 12:03:15 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Erik Sherman <esherman@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Comenments on RotJ - SPOILER

     And the last thing I expected was to enter the RotJ discussion...

     Luke did not act as a Jedi when dealing with Jabba the Hut
because he wasn't a Jedi.  Yoda told Luke that his training was
finished, but that he wouldn't be a Jedi knight until he confronted
his father.  I argue that to become a Jedi knight, Luke had to
foreswear hatred when confronting his father, though the action might
claim his life.  Remember in Empire, Luke fails a test when he attacks
the image of Vader in the cave.  Only when Luke can throw away his
light saber rather than take his father's life does he become a Jedi.

     Why doesn't Vader recognize the force in Leia?  Because she
hasn't worked to develop it.  Vader recognizes the force in Luke
because Obi-Wan has worked with Luke to develop the boy's ability.

Erik Sherman (esherman @BBN-UNIX)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 12:51:34 EDT
From: Marla <SELINGER@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: RoTJ

     I was also wondering how an adopted child could become a
Princess.  Aren't the subjects a little picky about who their royalty
can be?

     I guess I will have to read the book to find out about this one.

     Here's another small Jedi blooper, though:

     Luke has just defeated Vader, cutting off his saber hand.
"Excellent!"  cries the Emperor, calling on Luke to join with him.
"Never!" exclaims Luke, taking his home-brew light saber and throwing
it away...and....?

     You never hear the saber land.  I paid special attention to this
the second time I saw RoTJ through, and I am sure of it.  Did it fall
into the reactor?  (there was no blinding flash of light) Was it made
of soft metal?  Or was there just a stagehand waiting off stage left
to catch it?  I am willing to suspend my belief for some things, but
not simple laws of physics and gravity.  Things fall down.  (At least
the Emperor did, later in that same scene.)

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 15:23:29-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: (rotj semi-spoiler) re Jedi flying and who can't

     Jedi CAN'T fly, is the answer; they can simply jump high (which I
think is a conscious reference to Superman, who originally was only
"able to leap tall buildings in a single bound"). Note that if Luke
could fly the pit beast wouldn't be able to catch him (yes, a Jedi can
make other things fly, but that's another story---cf Stasheff, in
which one sex of witches is auto-levitative while the other is
exo-levitative (and so must fly \on/ something, e.g. a broomstick).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 15:23:45-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: credits in RotJ (spoiler)

     The credits do list Annakin Skywalker; presumably they could have
used the same person for the dying Darth Vader. \My/ question, after
seeing scraps of ANH the same evening (somebody left the HBO on), is
whether the same actor was Uncle Owen in the first film.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 15:41:14 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Woods.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: RotJ (assorted answers and comments -- and spoilers)

     From: Heiny.henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
     What bugs me is: if Darth and Luke can fly, why didn't the
     Emperor?

     Neither Luke nor Darth has ever been shown flying; they have
always had something to push off from.  When Luke dropped into the
carbonite pit in TESB, for example, he clearly dropped all the way in
and then came leaping out.  If you watch closely as the Emperor falls
into the shaft, you can see that he never touches the sides, so he had
nothing against which he could push off.  (Even so, it still seems
wrong to get rid of a super-moby bad guy by tossing him into a pit!)

     From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
     In ANH, Darth Vader was the altimate bad guy, evil to the core.
     I don't even recall any reference to a superior evil (the
     emperor).

     When DV walked into the meeting of the Generals, he announced
that the Emperor had dissolved the Senate, thereby removing the last
vestiges of the old Republic.  I agree that DV's subservience to the
Emperor became more and more pronounced as the trilogy progressed.

     From: "KEN MOREAU AT CLOSUS c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
     The only "continuing" character among all episodes is Yoda, since
     he has certainly been around for the first trilogy, and there is
     nothing to suggest he won't be around for the next one.

     Lucas once claimed that the only characters present in all nine
episodes would be the droids; in fact, the movies can largely be
viewed as a story told by C3PO, which makes his synopsis in RotJ
particularly amusing.

     From: "PAUL KARGER at ULTRA c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
     When shuttle craft land on the Death Star (twice), the landing
     bay is clearly open to space, yet the troops lined up for review
     have no trouble breathing.  If there is an invisible force field
     keeping in the atmosphere, there is no mention of it in either
     the book or the film.

     I figure there has to be a force screen.  It would be more
believable if there weren't people in the docking bay when ships come
and go, implying that the force field is brought down at such times.
Indeed, in RotJ it looks as though the bay is empty when DV's shuttle
enters; the watching personnel are in a separate viewing deck, and the
honor guard isn't shown until after the ship has landed.  But in A New
Hope, there were people in the bay when the Falcon escaped from the
Death Star.  Sigh.  Another theory says that all ships use artificial
gravity to carry around a pocket of air with them, which also explains
how they are able to make whooshing noises as they go past.

     How is it that Vader did not notice that Leia was "strong with
     the force" or adopted for that matter, when she was being
     interrogated in SW IV?  He had plenty of time to work, she was
     drugged, and was tortured.

     He did comment on it: "Her resistance to the mind probe is
considerable."  I agree that it is surprising he didn't make more of
it at the time.

        From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER@SRI-AI.ARPA>
     I throughly enjoyed the walkers. They are, in fact, something
     which the military is looking into. They were new and innovative.
     The forest sleds were bizarre. I couldn't decide whether they had
     automatic obstacle avoidance or not.

     The walkers are neat special effects -- a friend pointed out to
me that, since they are always matted in, how did they film the scene
where one of them drags a bunch of Ewoks on a rope? -- but they are
absurdly fragile, especially given that they are supposed to be
"all-terrain vehicles".  Besides, antigravity seems to be cheap in
this culture, so who needs these silly things with clumsy legs?

     As for the sleds, our conclusion was that they must be
semi-automatic, guided by the rider's vision; there's just no way
anybody could control a manual sled at those speeds.  And of course,
it means that when you look over your shoulder you're likely to run
into a tree . . .

     In general, the Empire's combat technology and personnel were
sillier than ever in RotJ.  We've already seen that storm trooper
armor doesn't protect against blasters.  We now see that doesn't even
protect against arrows!  We also see why nobody worries much about
blasters -- one of them hits Luke's hand and just burns away the
artificial skin, doing no damage to the circuitry within.  (My
computer should be so sturdy.)  And finally, we see that a storm
trooper can't hit a rebel sitting on a log.

     But I enjoyed it anyway!

        -- Don.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 1614-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO at KESTREL>
Subject: Who played Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker (the answer)

Address: Kestrel Institute, 1801 Page Mill Rd., Palo Alto, CA  94304
Phone: (415) 494-2233

     THREE actors played the character:

     Darth Vader's body was played by David Prowse.
     Darth Vader's voice was played by James Earl Jones.
     Anakin Skywalker was played by another actor whose name I'm
drawing a blank on (Peter Mayhew?).

--Lynn

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday,  8 Jun 1983 18:06-PDT
Subject: RotJ
From: Paul Asente <asente%Shasta@SU-Score>

     A couple of points which haven't appeared yet in sf-lovers are
hot topics of conversation around here:

     Did the Emperor really die?  Sure there was a blue explosion, but
it didn't look like anything blowing up.  Surely you can't get rid of
imperial nasties by merely dropping them into a pit!

     Why does the empire use walkers?  From the first scene, it's
clear that anti-gravity is a workable technology.  I expect the real
answer to this question is that the walking tanks are wonderful
special effects.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 18:40:11 EDT
From: Phread Cichowski <CICHOWSKI@RU-GREEN.ARPA>
Subject: Return of the Jedi

     Granted, RotJ left out a lot of minor details, such as:

     -where did Luke get his second light saber?
     -how did Darth Vader become mostly machine?
     -what was on Darth Vader's mind when he de-
     livered his son to the Emperor?
     -who is the Emperor and where did he come
     from?
     -how was Luke related to his "uncle" that
     raised him?

     For these and other fine tid-bits of information:

     Read the book!

     It explains all, but tends to be poorly written.

                May the Force be with you,

                Phread Cichowski

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jun 83 02:22:30 EDT
From: Jim Meehan <Meehan@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: RotJ

     1.  "Mark Terribile, Duke of deNet" was unhappy with the
emperor's getting physical in the final scene.  "It would have been
far better if he sat with his eye [sic] closed as the sparks engulfed
Luke..."  I think he misses the chief effect of the emperor.  As
illogical as it may seem, it's scarier to see this shriveled, old
wight coming at you, hands all gnarled in spell-casting mode, etc.  As
a friend of mine pointed out, it's the Wicked Witch of the West all
over again, and that's why it's so powerful: there's no terror like a
old terror, and no one forgets the Wicked Witch of the West.  For me,
the emperor is by far the most memorable character in RotJ; DV is
next; the utterly and wonderfully repulsive Jabba comes third.  It is
for creating (and resurrecting) images like this that Lucas deserves a
great deal of credit.

     2.  The next time you see it, listen carefully when Chewie and
the Ewoks swing onto the top of the walker.  Yep, a Tarzan yell.

     3.  If you get a chance to see it when there are lots of little
kids in the sudience, pass it up.  Go to the midnight show if you have
to, but the second time I saw it, some nearby tots made me wish I had
the powers of the Dark Side.  The first time I saw it (at the first
local performance), the crowd went wild, and the tension in the scene
where Vader is deciding whether to grab the emperor ran high -- chants
of "Do it!  Do it!"  Great.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 4:46:32-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ih1ap!pat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: "BIGS was right!"

     Has anyone an idea as to the identity of "BIGS" in the SW saga?
In the first SW film, Luke says, "BIGS was right, I'll never get out
of here". This was in response to his Uncle Owen asking him to stay on
one more year. I noticed in ROTJ that one or two references were also
made about BIGS. I can not recall the context but has anyone else
heard these?

Patrick A. Fargo
(!ih1ap!fargo)  BTL-IH

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 10 Jun 83 1809-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #32
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 10 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 32

Today's Topics:
       Books - Libertarian SF (2 msgs) & Gene Wolfe (2 msgs) &
    The Haldemans & R.A. MacAvoy & John Norman & Douglas Adams &,
        Films - The Stars My Destination and Bug Jack Barron &
                   The Dark Crystal & DUNE (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 83 11:11:45-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!sullivan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Libertarian SF? - (nf)

     Can people give me pointers to sf books with a Libertarian slant?
And don't assume that I have read any of `the standard ones', because
it is just possible that I haven't.

Thanks!
David Sullivan
New York University
...!floyd!cmcl2!sullivan

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 01:04:11-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: Libertarian SF? - (nf)

     Anything by F. Paul Wilson, although he tends to cast
stereotypical statists as villains in extremely improbably situations.

     L. Neil Smith's THE PROBABILITY BROACH and THE VENUS BELT---fast
action.  HER MAJESTY'S BUCKETEERS probably too, although I couldn't
get more than a few pages into it.

     J. Neil Shulman, ALONGSIDE OF NIGHT---best of the lot.

     Note that there is an award ("Prometheus"---x$ in gold) given to
what is judged the best libertarian SF of the year. David Friedman
(son of the Chicago economist and a rising L econ. himself) suggested
that they should consider literary merit as well as political purity,
in which case MERCHANTER'S LUCK would be a shoo-in (his opinion).

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 83 10:42:05 EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun"

     Unlike several recent posters on SFL, I found "The Shadow of the
Torturer" to be one of the finest new books I've read in recent years.
I found myself reading this and two of its three sequels in the space
of a week. I will admit that the style is not for everyone--it is
complex, rich in imagery, slow in pace. As a professional writer, I
could only admire Wolfe's skill in writing a science fiction series
that read like a fantasy.

------------------------------

Date: 5 Jun 83 2:02:12-PDT (Sun)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re:The shadow of the Torturer

     Gene Wolfe is one of the brightest new talents in speculative
fiction.  His best work is the four-volume "Book of the New Sun",
consisting of "The Shadow of the Torturer", "The Claw of the
Conciliator", "The Sword of the Lictor", and "The Citadel of the
Autarch".  The second volume won the Nebula Award, and the third and
fourth are likely candidates for the same award.

     The protagonist of the series is Severian, a young and quietly
insane journeyman of the despised Torturer's Guild (the Guild of
Seekers of Truth and Penitence).  The setting is a time so far in the
future that today is less than a memory, with even our legends
forgotten.  Mankind has flourished and fallen over the millions of
years.  The setting is surrealistic medieval.  The influence of
Vance's excellent "The Dying Earth" is clear, but it would be a
mistake to label Wolfe as in any way derivative.

     This is probably not a work for people who only read science
fiction or fantasy.  The literary and mythological allusions are
thick, though never really annoyingly so, and the style is far from
the usual matter-of-fact description of sf, full of ambiguity and
unusual metaphor.  If the books seem to drag, you're probably not
paying enough attention -- there is more on many pages than in entire
chapters of most fantasies.

     I can't see how to give a useful plot synopsis without spoiling
it for you, so I can only recommend it highly.

Tim Maroney

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 15:19:23-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: haldemans

     Joe and Jack are indeed brothers, which is probably why Joe and
Gay (who live in Florida) appear at Disclave (Washington DC---Jack was
[chair] of Discon II in 1974). Jack was more involved in fandom and
took a while longer to break into print---I haven't read anything of
his that I particularly liked but the two of them seem to
cross-pollinate each other (Joe's recent work seems a bit tired).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Jun 83 13:22:44 PDT
From: Scott Turner <v.srt@UCLA-LOCUS>
Subject: "Tea with the Black Dragon"

     I was not as pleased with R.A. MacAvoy's "Tea with the Black
Dragon".  I thought the book had a lot of promise -- interesting
characters, good plot ideas, but found the execution to be lacking a
bit.  The book never seemed to really grab me.  I wasn't motivated to
be interested in the character's struggles.

     Overall, I'd say a fair, but not great book.

                                        == Scott ==

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jun 83 13:51:10-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!steve @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Gor

     I must be one of the weirder types, since I've managed to plow
through all of the Gor novels.

     Yes, it got to be EXTREMELY difficult at times to follow the plot
(yes, there is a plot in there, somewhere).  And yes, it helps a lot
to scan over the sex (long discussions of sex-roles in the middle of
action scenes?) And yes, there are even WHOLE BOOKS which don't really
have any justification other than touting J.N.'s fantasies.

     I got the feeling that the concept for the story came from E.R.
Burroughs but deviated widely about volume three.

     J.N.'s managed to cover about all the land masses on Gor save for
the one the mad ship-wright sailed into. Hopefully, he will finish
this monument to sexism before he dies.

     With any luck he should finish up soon. Perhaps with "On the
Moons of Gor", "Journey to the Center of Gor", or maybe "Gor is a
Harsh Mistress".

     Actually, I'm holding out to see who will win out-the Beasts or
the Priest-Kings.

     The only scary thing is--I tend to get stuck on serials. And this
one just isn't ending. Wouldn't surprize me if J.N. was actually
living off just the Gor series-especially since he only seems to pop
one out each year- which means I may never know the outcome of the
conflict. Something like my fear of not living long enough to see all
of the SW trilogies.  (Lucas will be 61 when the last SW film is made
if he follows through with the proposed pattern)

     Don't know of any Gor fan clubs. Whouldn't join one if there was.

                        Steve Russell  Ampex, Redwood City

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jun 83 14:24:41 EDT (Fri)
From: !!idis!mi-cec!rwg@Berkeley
Subject: another theory

     Make that definite -- "What score do you get when you spell out
'Life, the Universe, and Everything' with Scrabble tiles?"

     Credit to Raz for figuring that one out.

Rich Getlak, decvax!idis!mi-cec!rwg

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 15:49:50 EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: "Stars My Destination"

     A friend in the scriptwriting program at NYU says that a script
is being written for Bester's "The Star's My Destination" by an
established Hollywood screenwriter. She has no idea when filming might
begin.

     Can anyone confirm (or deny) the story that Harlan Ellison is
doing a script based on Spinrad's "Bug Jack Barron", to be directed by
Costa-Gavras ("Z", "Missing")?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 at 1325-CDT
From: King Ables <ables@utexas-11.arpa>
Subject: Dark Crystal

     For whoever was curious to find out more about how they did some
of the creatures in "Dark Crystal," there was a program on PBS some
months ago called something like "The Making of Dark Crystal" which
was quite interesting.  It detailed many of the complex shots and
methods used to make the puppets look lifelike.  Actual construction
of the puppets was not talked about a lot, as I recall, but to some
degree.  You might watch for it to be repeated (especially during
pledge week(s) ).

-king

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 11:38:42-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!sb6!emory!gatech!spaf @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Movie of "Dune"

     I've been hearing that a movie is being done of Frank Herbert's
book "Dune."  If it is done well it should be a really exciting movie.
I've heard that Sting of the rock group The Police has been signed for
the movie; after seeing him in a few MTV videos I bet he's been hired
to play Duncan Idaho.

     Questions:

     Anybody know anything more about this movie?
     Who would you like to see cast in the main roles?
     Any idea about who is doing the screenplay?
     Can the movie be done well in less than 3 or 4 hours?

"The soapbox of Gene Spafford"

Spaf @ GATech                   (CS Net)
Spaf.GATech @ UDel-Relay        (ARPA)           School of ICS
...!{sb1, allegra}!gatech!spaf  (uucp)           Georgia Tech
...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!spaf                   Atlanta, GA 30332

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 83 8:47:03-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxn!okie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  Movie of Dune

     As I understand it, Sting will be playing the villanous
Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen.  I haven't heard about any of the other cast
members as yet, and have no idea who should play what parts.  Except
for the Baron -- perhaps Orson Welles ("We will sell no spice before
its time")?  Just kidding...

     I've only heard one other thing, and that is enough to send
shivers down my spine (as I consider "Dune" an excellent sf
novel)...maybe someone out there can confirm it.  Is it true that the
movie is being produced by (gasp!) Dino DeLaurentis?  If so, break it
to me gently -- I have high hopes for this film.

A servant of the Imperium,
BK
ihuxn!okie
Bell Labs, Naperville

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 13 Jun 83 2239-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #34
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 13 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 34

Today's Topics:
       Books - Libertarian SF (2 msgs) & Gene Wolfe (2 msgs) &
                           Douglas Adams &
  Isaac Asimov and Michael Bishop and Piers Anthony and John Varley,
                        Movies - DUNE (2 msgs)
                  General - Time Paradoxes & The SCA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 83 5:44:50-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!cca!ima!inmet!nrh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Libertarian SF? - (nf)

     Some Libertarian SF:

     By L. Neil Smith:

          The Probability Broach
          The Venus Belt
          The Nagasaki Vector

     By J. Neil Schulman:

          Alongside Night

     By F. Paul Wilson:

          Healer
          Wheels within Wheels

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 83 09:26 EDT
From: Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: re: Libertarian SF?

     Stuff by Robert Anton Wilson covers some interesting (although
not orthodox) libertarian attitudes.  Books of his that I can think of
offhand:

"ILLUMINATUS!" done w/Robert Shea (actually 3 books: "The Eye In the
Pyramid", "The Golden Apple", "Leviathan")

"Masks of the Illuminati"

"The Cosmic Trigger"

"Schroedinger's Cat" (3 books: "The Universe Next Door", "The Homing
Pigeons", "The Trick Top Hat")

"The Illuminati Papers" (not really SF, but a collection of his
essays)

     There is disagreement as to whether Wilson is really a
libertarian (one person I know calls him a 'pinko hippie drug freak',
and means it).  Even if he isn't, some of his characters are.

                                Chris

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 10:25:36-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re:The shadow of the Torturer

     I wouldn't exactly call Wolfe a 'new' talent. I was reading him
in high school a long time ago... He has just never made (or wanted)
the spotlight before New Sun came out.

     Calling his work 'SF' or 'Fantasy' is invalid. He has written a
major work of literature that happens to use some of the settings of
the genres. It is in my mind the most important piece of literature I
have seen published since Tolkien, and I think that it is better than
Tolkien (heresy?)

chuck
ucbvax!amd70!packet!cfv

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 83 15:12:31-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re:The shadow of the Torturer

     When I said that Wolfe was a new talent, I was not considering
the novella "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" or any of his fine earlier
work, but the new stuff really makes the old look sick.  Like you, I
read "Cerberus" in high school.

     Wolfe seems far better than Tolkien to me.  I think Tolkien is
vastly overrated.

Tim Maroney

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 83 19:17:00-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!reed!cdi!caf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Meaning of 42

     A Unix(TM) "Look-alike" system here has a tendency to print -42
when attempting to give group numbers in directory listings.

     In The TV version of HHGtTG a large computer came up with the 42.
Was it running some Unix look-alike?

     Chuck Forsberg, Chief Engr, Computer Development Inc.
     6700 S. W. 105th, Beaverton OR 97005   (503) 646-1599
     cdi!caf

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 83 10:53:13-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Locus Summary and Review of new Varley Book

     After a long break, here is more LOCUS news.  We have been having
many problems due to our external links.  I have not seen
net.sf-lovers in weeks, and I have not received any mail about my
previous book reviews.  Anyone who sent mail to me and did not receive
a response, I probably didn't get your original letter.  Try getting
to me by any route other than decvax!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut.

     Isaac Asimov has turned in the manuscript for "THE ROBOTS OF
DAWN", a sequel to "THE CAVES OF STEEL" and "THE NAKED SUN".  He got a
$150,000 advance (more than for "FOUNDATION'S EDGE").  He refused to
leak details.

     Michael Bishop is writing strong.  Expect "ONE WINTER IN EDEN" (a
collection of short stories) this fall, and "WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE?"
(a novel) in 1984.

     Avon is publishing "REFUGEE" by Piers Anthony in September.

     Also,  a mini-review for Varley's latest effort.

                              MILLENIUM.
                             John Varley
            Berkley, June 1983      $6.95/ $7.95 in Canada

     The basis of the plot is that humanity in the very distant future
is dying of genetic diseases, radiation poisoning and everything else
we might expect along those lines.  There are some sketchy
explanations of how things all come about but they aren't too im-
portant.  The people of the future use a time-machine (which they
think was built 50-75 centuries before) to travel back in time and
pick up victims of disasters before they die and replace them with
artificial bodies.  That sounds very familiar if anyone wants to dig
up an obscure reference.

     The new people are to be used to help re-populate the Earth.  For
some reason, the time machine cannot send back to the same moment
twice.  This leads to blacked-out areas of time which you have either
been to or which you will be going to or which someone else might be
going to.  It is all very confusing and there are lots of even more
confusing explanations.

     For those who like literature, there are references to H.  G.
Wells' and stuff.  All in all, a mediocre book which makes one pine
for the less explanation-ridden days of the early 40's and 50's.  (I
wasn't there, but I read the stories.)  However, what really makes the
book stand out in my mind, the second to last chapter is not very
good.  It confuses things but suddenly we are hot in the middle of a
Harlequin romance.  Then, the last chapter.  By the time I got here, I
thought I had read it all but nooooooo, there are more twists to come.
We find thousands of Christian myths alive and well (there are earlier
hints), a very soft ending (depressingly bad I thought), and then...

                                 GOD

Yup, we get to meet him and find out he is a sneaky bugger indeed.

     I have rarely disliked an ending as much.  In fact, I wasn't too
crazy about the book but it was entertaining in parts but when I got
to the very end, I decided I hated the entire book.

     Varley has written lots of good stuff (read "THE BARBIE MURDERS"
for an example), and he has some average stuff ("WIZARD", "TITAN").
But in this book he makes me long for "NUMBER OF THE BEAST".  Overall
rating (1-10) is 3, but the ending gets a 1 (I would give it lower,
but there isn't any).

            --- Stephen Perelgut ---

{ihnp4,uw-beaver,ubc-vision}!utcsrgv!perelgut

(less usefull links)

{floyd,mhtsa,sask,cornell,watmath,hcr}!utcsrgv!perelgut

{dciem,trigraph,garfield,qucis,nabu}!utcsrgv!perelgut

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 83 8:55:47-PDT (Thu)
From: upstill @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Movie of "Dune"

     The movie version of DUNE began production April 16 in Mexico.
It is being written and directed by David Lynch, who has made just two
previous feature films: "Eraserhead" and "The Elephant Man".  The
original plan was to film it in two parts, but apparently Lynch got
the script down to one-feature size.  The budget is somewhere in the
neighborhood of $40M, and speculation in the industry is that this may
become the most expensive movie (in inflated dollars) of all time.

     I believe they are shooting for a Summer 1984 release.

     More later.

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 Jun 1983 04:16-PDT
Subject: DUNE Inquiry
From: mike at rand-unix

     Allen Debovois, producer at Robert Abel and Associates in
Hollywood asked me to forward this to SF-LOVERS:

     In response to the DUNE inquiries:

PRODUCER: DINO DE LAURENTIIS
DIRECTOR/SCREENPLAY: DAVID LYNCH (ERASERHEAD, ELEPHANT MAN)
DIRECTOR OF PHOTOGRAPHY: FREDDIE FRANCIS
EDITOR: ANTONY GIBBS
PRODUCTION DESIGN: ANTONY MASTERS
SPECIAL EFFECTS: APOGEE
STARRING: MAX VON SYDOW, SILVANA MANGANO, FRANCESCA ANNIS,
          KYLE MACLACHLAN, JOSE FERRER, BRAD DORIF, LEONARDO
          CIMINO, LINDA HUNT (YEAR OF LIVING DANGEROUSLY),
          STING, ....

     Production started on April 6 in Mexico. By the way, De
Laurentiis did produce Fellini's "La Strada", so you never know ....

------- End of Forwarded Message

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 1983 15:19:09-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: time paradoxes

     The paradox which you describe as involving a necklace is of
course one of the standards; I recall it turning up in one of the
first anthologies of SF ever printed (ca 1950) and in Harry Harrison's
"THE TECHNICOLOR TIME MACHINE". The answer is of course that when
you're dealing with time travel in SF you make your own rules; most
authors have been sufficiently disorganized to let this paradox
through with nothing more than random handwaving.

     For coherent dealing with possible paradoxes, see "A Gun for
Dinosaur" (de Camp---attempting to cause a paradox strains space-time
so much you get slammed back to wherever you came from), "The Man Who
Murdered Mohammad" (Bester---the more paradoxes you cause, the more
unreal (and incapable of affecting "reality" at all) you become) and
"TIMES WITHOUT NUMBER" (Brunner--- in the last of the set of stories
in a Spain-dominated uchronia time travel is negatively stable if
alteration of the past is possible, because at some point somebody
will do something that prevents the development of time travel).

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jun 83 1:24:34-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: Want to live like your favorite - (nf)

     In my experience (at least out here in the Kingdom of the West)
(CA and environs, more or less, except Southern CA is now an
independent Kingdom and.. aw heck, either you already know or you
don't care) There is a great deal less 'hardcore' alternate-identity
type stuff.  Tim likes partying as himself, not as someone else.
Well, my SCA 'character' WAS me, with a different name.  I emphasized
my 'mediaeval' interests (music, art, heraldry) more than my '20th
century' ones (computers, SF, computers, automobiles, ...) and
essentially remained myself.  There was remarkably little pressure to
create a whole, well-defined mediaeval person.

     I have been given to understand that the East Kingdom is less
'laid-back' about the whole thing, too, but that's hearsay.

Lord Nikolaj Zrogowacialy, Order of the leaf of Merit, Order
        of the Towers of Dreiburgen, Princess' Order of Grace

AKA
Berry Kercheval
(415)932-6900

Zehntel Inc. (decvax!sytek!zehntel!zinfandel!berry)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jun 83 1821-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #35
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (11 msgs)


















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 83 3:26:48-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!jay @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Princess Leia Question (SPOILER) - (nf)

     According to the book, she was adopted, but the fact of her
adoption was hidden.  I don't know how that could be accomplished
without also granting her royal status.

Jay Phillips

...hplabs!hp-pcd!jay

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 83 3:27:03-PDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!hp-dcd!jack @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)

     Certainly!  When I was eight years old, I found out that I was
adopted and it never concerned me much.  Of course I referred to my
adoptive parents as Mom & Dad and such like that.  What else would I
call them?  Jack & Helen?  The fact that I was adopted at a very early
age (two weeks) may contribute to this, but I imagine that Leia was
given away just after birth.

                                -Jack Applin IV

------------------------------

Date: 11 June 1983 19:55 EDT
From: Arturo Perez <ART @ MIT-MC>
Subject: In reply to Who's Bigs?

     If you read Star Wars the book (I mean the first one) you'll find
that Bigs is a friend of Luke's from Tattooine.  Bigs went to the
Imperial Naval Academy and upon graduation joined the rebellion.  I
was under the impression that he had died in ANH.

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 83 10:00:21-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!sb6!emory!gatech!spaf @
From: Ucb-Vax
Subject: Darth played by... (possible spolier?)

     Based on careful observation and an interview on NPR, we believe
that the person in the Darth costume (when Luke removes his helmet
just before he dies) is James Earl Jones.  Note the voice and check
out the eyes.

--
"The soapbox of Gene Spafford"

Spaf @ GATech                   (CS Net)
Spaf.GATech @ UDel-Relay        (ARPA)  School of ICS
...!{sb1, allegra}!gatech!spaf  (uucp)  Georgia Tech
...!duke!mcnc!msdc!gatech!spaf          Atlanta, GA 30332

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jun 83 11:19:54-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!ihuxw!rtf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Darth Vader's body (spoiler)

     I just saw ROTJ again last night and enjoyed it more than the
first time.  When seeing a movie of this quality I like looking around
the edges of every scene to see the detail involved in the background.
It has been done with extreme care.  However, a question came to mind
while watching.

     Why does the body of Darth Vader (Anakin Skywalker)
     remain after his death.  If indeed he denounced the
     dark side of the force before he died shouldn't his
     body have disappeared like Obi-Wan and Yoda?

     Also, Ewoks remind me of Munchkins in Wizard of Oz.  They are too
cute and sweet and give me a cavity.

                                Sparrow

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 83 12:32:29-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!bch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Who played Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker

     Anakin Skywalker was played by an actor named Sebastian Shaw.
Peter Mayhew plays Chewbacca.

                        Byron

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 83 17:29:50-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!rba-dx @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Darth played by... (possible spolier?)

     Actually, the person inside Darth Vader's costume is David
Prowse.  James Earl Jones does the voice for Darth Vader. Sebastian
Shaw was the person inside the costume when Darth's mask was taken
off.

Danny Espinoza
allegra!rba-dx

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 83 9:42:38-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!eagle!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: levitating Death Stars

     The Death Star could not have been levitated by the force field
from Endor's moon.  If you recall, every time a ship wanted to enter
the area around the Death Star or proceed to the moon, the force field
had to be lowered.

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 83 0:05:23-PDT (Sat)
From: ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!bch @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Darth played by... (possible spolier?)

     Anakin Skywalker's eyes do not long anything like Thulsa Doom's.
Besides, in the official program WHICH WAS POSTED TO THE NET, also
verified by my own eyes, the actors name is Sebastian Shaw.  Sheesh!

                        Byron

------------------------------

Date: 10 Jun 83 18:05:55-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!alberta!tim @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ Cast

     Lately I've been seeing inquiries about who played Anakin
Skywalker in RotJ, and since I have a folder with all the credits that
was distributed at the premier showing, I thought I'd post the whole
cast for the interest of those who haven't memorised the credits.

CAST

Luke Skywalker                   Mark Hamill
Han Solo                         Harrison Ford
Princess Leia                    Carrie Fisher
Lando Calrissian                 Billy Dee Williams
See- Threepio (C-3PO)            Anthony Daniels
Chewbacca                        Peter Mayhew
Anakin Skywalker                 Sebastian Shaw
Emperor                          Ian McDiarmid
Yoda                             Frank Oz
Darth Vader                      David Prowse
Voice of Darth Vader             James Earl Jones
Ben (Obi-Wan) Kenobi             Alec Guinness

SUPPORTING CAST

Artoo-Deetoo (R2-D2)              Kenny Baker
Moff Jerjerrod                    Michael Pennington
Admiral Piett                     Kenneth Colley
Bib Fortuna                       Michael Carter
Wedge                             Denis Lawson
Admiral Ackbar                    Tim Rose
General Madine                    Dermot Crowley
Mon Mothma                        Caroline Blakiston
Wicket                            Warwick Davis
Paploo                            Kenny Baker
Boba Fett                         Jeremy Bulloch
Oola                              Femi Taylor
Sy Snootles                       Annie Arbogast
Fat Dancer                        Claire Davenport
Teebo                             Jack Purvis
Logray                            Mike Edmonds
Chief Chirpa                      Jane Busby
Ewok Warrior                      Malcom Dixon
Ewok Warrior                      Mike Cottrell
Nicki                             Nicki Reade
Stardestroyer Controller No. 1    Adam Bareham
Stardestroyer Controller No. 2    Jonathan Oliver
Stardestroyer Captain No. 1       Pip Miller
Stardestroyer Captain No. 2       Tom Mannion
Jabba Puppeteers                  Toby Philpott, Mike Edmonds,
                                  David Barclay
Puppeteers                        Michael McCormick, Deep Roy,
                                  Simon Williamson, Hugh Spirit
                                  Swim Lee, Michael Quinn,
                                  Richard Robinson

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 0:46:12-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: ROTJ not spoiler - (nf)

     norskog@fortune asks is our conception of OB1's astral nature was
blown to bits when he sat on a log.  No, but I did find it strange
that he seemed to have put on about a dozen kilos.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 14 Jun 83 1830-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #36
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 14 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 36

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (3 msgs)























----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 1983 1121-EDT
From: Christopher Ross <ZAPHOD at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: BIGS

     That's 'Biggs'.  He was a friend of Luke's from Tatooine (read
the Star Wars novel) who joined the academy a year or so before Luke
and eventually met up with young Skywalker in the Rebel forces.  I
THINK he was also Red Two in the Death Star I attack.

                                        Chris Ross
                                        Zaphod@MIT-DEEP-THOUGHT
                                        RotJ addict

------------------------------

Date: 13-Jun-83 13:19:10-EDT
From: sorceror@LL.ARPA
Subject: RotJ: Comments, Criticism, and Speculation

                   ***** SPOILER WARNING *****

     I just saw RotJ, yesterday, and would like to put in my 8 bits on
the subject. (It was my first time; stayed away until now to avoid
long lines.)  While the following comments consist mostly of
criticism, I *DID* enjoy the film, and would give it a grade of B+ (or
4 *s).

Overall Plotting:

     The film was somewhat disjointed, with two stories that didn't
seem to relate to each other: 1) The rescue of Han Solo from Jabba the
Hutt; 2) The battle over the new Death-Star with struggle for Luke's
conscience. This structure results in a lack of "classical" unity, a
defect which probably could have been avoided. I feel that Lucas would
have done better with a plot like the following, which I recall seeing
in the SFL discussion of TESB:

     The Emperor and Vader anticipate that Luke will return to
Tatooine, in order to rescue Han. Therefore, they warn Jabba the Hutt
and form an alliance, wherein the Empire helps protect Jabba, in
return for Jabba's assistance in capturing Luke. Once Luke has been
spotted on Tatooine, the Imperial fleet moves into the vicinity of
Tatooine, to prevent the rebels from escaping in their spacecraft.
(This fleet could include the new Death-Star.) The protagonists rescue
Han and escape from Jabba's lair, but they are hunted on Tatooine by
the combined forces of Jabba and the Empire. Meanwhile, the main body
of the rebel forces try to punch a hole in the blockade, so that Luke,
Han, Leia et al can escape. At some point, Luke is captured and
brought before the Emperor....

     From this point, the story can proceed pretty much as it did in
the actual film.  Onward.

Death of the Emperor ?:

     The demise of the Emperor, if indeed he is dead, would seem to
eliminate much of the dramatic tension from the subsequent episodes of
the series. With both Vader and the Emperor gone, the Empire would
have no significant "Force Users" (if I may be allowed to paraphrase a
term from Dungeons and Dragons).  However, it looks as though Luke
will go on to train Han and Leia's offspring, and perhaps others, to
produce a number of new Jedi. Given the importance which has been
attached to the Force and those who use it, I would think that such an
imbalance would make the rebels' triumph a foregone conclusion. Rather
than produce three more chapters, why not simply flash on the screen
some text like:

     "...and in time, the Jedi replenished their numbers, defeated the
now unspirited leadership of the Empire, and restored freedom to the
galaxy."

     Therefore, I suspect that the Emperor is *NOT* dead, but that he
used the Force to teleport away from the Death-Star; that blinding
flash was a manifestation of this activity. The Emperor had a very
good reason to escape at that point, the shield generator had been
trashed, and the destruction of the Death-Star was imminent. He
realized that he didn't have enough time (and/or stamina) to kill both
Skywalkers with the blue bolts, and hoped that they would die in the
explosion of the Death-Star. This conjecture is supported also by my
extensive experience with the Universe of Marvel Comics, wherein a
character is not dead unless you see the corpse, and perhaps not even
then. Onward.

Death of Yoda:

     Yoda's death seemed to contribute only gratuitous pathos, without
advancing the story. Why should his years suddenly catch up with him,
at this point in time. I object, because, somehow I envisioned that
the Star Wars series would end with the Emperor deciding to attack
Yoda on Dagobah ("...let's cut off this stream of annoying Jedi at its
source..."), and being handily beaten by the "little green runt". This
ending seemed especially satisfying, because the Emperor's defeat
would have been the result of his own hubris, in attacking the master
of the discipline, and it would have demonstrated that the Light Side
of the Force really is stronger, in its defensive applications. But, I
guess thinks ain't gonna turn out that way.

     With Yoda's death, the task of training future Jedi now falls to
Luke.  This raises the question: "Is he capable of successfully
fulfilling this responsibility ?" This issue is obliquely addressed
through Obi-Wan's confession that his biggest mistake was in
attempting to train Anakin himself, rather than having Yoda do it.
Considering the interruption and brevity of Luke's training, I expect
that he will have even greater difficulties as a mentor, than Obi-Wan
did. While Luke may have learned enough to be a passable Jedi, he
probably did not have sufficient opportunity to learn the techniques
of teaching the skills, as distinguished from the skills themselves.
Perhaps, this problem is to be a major focus of the final trilogy, and
Yoda was written out of the story as a step in developing the
background.

                         Enjoy,

                               Karl Heinemann
                               (SORCEROR at LL)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 13:34 EDT (Monday)
From: Denber.WBST@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: RotJ Ramblings (Spoiler)

VLSI Review: OK

     Discrete Review: I started off not liking it, but changed my mind
about half way through once I got used to the nauseatingly cute Ewoks
(they had "New Star Wars Toys" spelled out all over them) and
something else I'm surprised I only saw mentioned once so far.

     I thought that RotJ was very heavy on gratuitous violence
compared to both its predecessors.  It bothered me that the audience
would laugh every time a Stormtrooper smashed into a tree on his
motorcycle.  It ended up reminding me of nothing more than a
live-action Road Runner cartoon.  This casual attitude toward death
was reinforced when all the good guys ended up coming back as
holograms anyway.  Kicked the bucket?  Not to worry - you just get a
bit translucent, that's all.  Sort of takes away something in the
dramatic impact department, though.

     The plot: And now for something completely different.  (The
Larch).  Did we really need to see *another* Death Star blow up?  ("It
blowed up good", "Yeah, it blowed up *real* good").  Is the plot of
this series being recycled mod 2 or what?

     Worst muppet: the blue elephant - gimme a break.

     Worst scene: the mushy stuff with Han & Leia on Endor.  Also, the
strangulation of Pizza the Hutt was just not convincing.  That chain
didn't cut into Jabba's neck (such as it was) at all.

     Best part: when Luke slices off DV's hand, sees the machinery,
and then flexes his own mechanical hand wondering if the Emp is right
about his "destiny".

     Best joke: when Han is hot-wiring the back door and says "I think
I got it", and another set of doors closes.  Thank goodness at least
the Millenium Falcon worked this time.

     Although I thought the final confrontation with the Emperor was
the best scene in the movie, I agree with the comments that it was a
rather hokey way for him to go, down the hatch that is.  I don't
understand why he didn't just turn his high-voltage arcing on Darth
Vader when he lifted him up.  He just stood there frozen, uselessly
zapping the ceiling on his way to be dumped.  But it was great the way
all the excess blue stuff came splashing back up the well after he hit
bottom.  Boy he sure had a lot of it stored up!

     RotJ had its moments, but I think my thirst for SW movies has now
been quenched.

                - Michel

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 15 Jun 83 1919-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #37
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Jun 1983     Volume 7 : Issue 37

Today's Topics:
      Films - Bug Jack Barron & E.T. & Wargames & Dune (2 msgs),
         Television - "V" (2 msgs) & Dr. Who and Star Trek &
                          S.F. on Public TV,
         Books - Libertarian S.F. & Mac Reynolds & Gene Wolfe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 15:41:36-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Stars My Destination - (nf)

     All I know is that Costa-Gavras IS doing "Bug Jack Barron", but I
have no idea who is doing the script.

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 1983 1144-CDT
From: Clive Dawson <CC.Clive@UTEXAS-20>
Subject: ET Query

     I recently saw ET for the second time, and was surprised to find
that one of my favorite lines in the movie had disappeared!  I'm only
about 80% certain of this, and would appreciate hearing anybody who
can support or disprove it.  The original line I remember was spoken
by the little girl shortly after her meeting with ET: "His feet are
icky.".  In the recent showing I only heard, "I don't like his feet."
Does anybody remember the first line?  Is it possible that both lines
were spoken at separate times, and I viewed a damaged or intentionally
cut print?

     Please reply to me and not the list.

Thanks,

CLive

------------------------------

Date: 15 June 1983 11:00 EDT
From: Arthur L. Chin <ARTHUR @ MIT-ML>
Subject: Wargames -- a micro-review  ( * * * *  out of five)

     WARGAMES is a movie built on some computer science and a touch of
imagination.  It is a surprisingly well-crafted film about a high
school computer wizard tapping into the Pentagon system and almost
starting WWIII.  Although it is difficult to inject suspense into a
film whose advertisements give away the first part of the movie, it
succeeds through fine direction, fast pacing and good acting.  The
most satisfying thing that I found about this film was how it treated
the people.  Almost all of the characters are (with one or two
exceptions) three-dimensional, embued with a sense of familiarity and
purpose that made the audience care about them!  The science fiction
part of the picture concerns a AI computer which can learn from its
mistakes.  Well, it seemed human, too!  The logic displayed in the
movie is fairly sound (w.r.t. the computer) and should delight wishful
AI people.  To wrap things up before I spoil anything, I highly
recommend this movie for good, clean, wholesome family entertainment,
and a bit of thought-provocation.  (Except for romantics -- they'll
barf at the sappy love(?) interest.)  I'd be interested in hearing how
others liked the movie, since this is my first film review, so don't
laugh.

                        Hee-hee-ha-ha,
                        arthur@MIT-ML

P.S.  I also think that they should show
      this movie to a certain Congress:
      maybe even to a President!  Don't
      they watch movies anymore?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 9:54:07-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!grindal@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Movie of "Dune"

     The movie of Dune is being produced and directed by Dino de
Laurentis (sp?).  While the name sounds familiar, I can't think of
anything good that he's done off the top of my head.

     As for doing a good job with "Dune", I don't think it's possible.
With any book, the transfer from print to film is difficult, since the
film can not describe all the background the book can.  Books can give
the thougts of the characters, while films can not do so without being
either contrived or hokey.  This problem would be manytimes magnified
by the immense complexity of the "Dune" society.  Can you imagine how
it would communicate to the viewer, issues such as:

     1) The Bene Gesserit and their 50 generation breeding plan.

     2) The feudal system of galactic government and how it came to
        exist.

for starters.  Now try and visualize a Hollywood special effects
imitation of a worm (Shai-Hulud).

     I'll go see it when it comes out, but I won't expect much of it.

                        David Grindal
                        (...!utzoo!utcsrgv!grindal)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 15:40:44-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!ucbcad!kalash @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re:  Movie of Dune - (nf)

     Sorry to confirm it, but DeLaurentis (the man with the monkey),
is indeed producing Dune.

                Joe

------------------------------

Date: Monday, 13 Jun 1983 22:38-PDT
Subject: Re: Inaccuracy in V?
From: jim at rand-unix

     I didn't notice that they called the large event in our past a
meteor rather than a meteorite, but I was impressed that they cited
iridium as one of its main components.  I believe it was only last
year that some scientists (the name Luis Alvarez comes to mind, but I
could be wrong) discovered a layer of iridium in several widely
separated places that was deposited at the same time, coeval with one
of the major extinctions (was it the end of the Carboniferous??).  The
iridium was orders of magnitude more than in previous years, and
tapered off.  The conclusion was that it was part of a meteorite that
caused the extinctions.  As I say, I was pleased that the writers had
done their homework.

------------------------------

Date: 15-Jun-83 09:51 PDT
From: WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2
Subject: "V"

     From the mouth of syndicated television critic (Gary Deeb) comes:

     V," the extremely popular SF miniseries that scored big for NBC
last month, will be a major feature of the Peacock Network's 1983-84
prime-time program schedule.

     This column has learned exclusively that NBC plans to telecast no
less than 4 two-hour sequels to "V" starting late in the fall.  The
follow-ups will be aired in November, December, January and February
-- with the original 4 hour "V" presentation probably to be repeated
just before the sequels hit the air.

     As previously reported, the high production costs -- more than
twice that of the average program -- prevented NBC from adapting "V"
into a weekly one-hour series for fall.  But institution of the 4
monthly sequels seems a good bet to recapture most of the audience
that gravitated toward the original.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 1983  18:29 EDT (Tue)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #27

     Two points.  First, Peter Davidson (the current Dr Who) is indeed
the same actor that played Tristan in "All Creatures Great and Small".
I have seen a few episodes with him in it, and have had trouble
adjusting to him as the Dr.  He is not bad as the Dr, it is just that
I keep seeing Tristan characteristics in the Dr.  For example, his
interpretation seems more conceited and I as the viewer have a more
difficult time believing that he is competent, etc.

     Second, ".. a beach to walk on . ." is certainly from a Star Trek
episode, however I cannot remember which one at the moment.

Greg

P.S. I am a little behind in my SF-LOVERS reading. Hopefully this
isn't too far behind.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 1983 0957-MDT
From: Pendleton@UTAH-20 (Bob Pendleton)
Subject: Public TV, not as good as you think

     FLAME!!!FLAME!!!FLAME!!!

     I have just read another message in SF-LOVERS telling me how
wonderful public tv is and how nice it is that they bring us Dr. Who,
HGttG, and reruns of the Prisoner.  Telling me I should send them lots
of money so they can continue to do these wonderful things.

     It must be nice to live in areas where this is true!  But here in
the intermountain west ( read Salt Lake City ) it isn't.  We have a
public tv station out here, KUED. it does not run Dr. Who, it has
never heard of Dr. Who.  HGttG? yeah they ran that.  All in one night.
Late at night.  On a week night.  With, I am told, 10-15 minutes of
advertising between each episode.  The Prisoner? you gotta be kidding!

     Please, next time you turn on your tv to watch the Prisoner,
remember that you are only a network away from parts of the world that
are not enlightened enough to run science fiction on public tv.

      Bob Pendleton

P.S.
  I have been told that KUED serves more total land area than any
other public tv station in the U.S.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 83 00:40:55 EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Libertarian SF

     Anyone interested in libertarianism and SF must read "The
Survival of Freedom", a collection of stories edited by Jerry
Pournelle.  Although not strictly libertarian, it is generally aimed
in that direction.  It includes the gem by F. Paul Wilson,
"Lipidleggin'", and a piece by David Friedman.

     I heard that F. Paul Wilson had written an SF novel entitled
"Enemy of the State" but upon ordering it from my bookstore,
discovered it was out of print.  Does anyone know anything about it?

     There are to my mind two libertarian classics in science fiction,
"And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell (a (long) short
story), and "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" by Robert A. Heinlein.
Another Heinlein novel, "Beyond This Horizon", is of particular
libertarian flavor but has not the stature of a classic.  I regret
that I do not have a better knowledge of Russell's other writings.

     "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand is not science fiction by my
definition, but is "SF" by some people's.  Bernardo de la Paz says, "I
could live with a Randite."  I could too.

     yYou might also read "Shield" by Poul Anderson and see what you
think.  Yes, it has a bogus deus ex machina ending.

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 8:01:23-PDT (Mon)
Subject: Mac Reynolds

     Does anybody in the news group know what has happened to a SF
writer by the name of Mac Reynolds (sp)? I have read many of his books
but have not seen any new ones in a long time.

                        Thanks
                        Dick Sieck

------------------------------

Date: 14 June 1983 08:25 cdt
From: Bibbero.PMSDMKT
Subject: Gene Wolfe

     Please add my voice to the advocates of Gene Wolfe.  As a
professional writer and sf-lover from well before Doc Smith era, I
think he is the best thing that has come over the pike since "Canticle
for Liebowitz" and is at least the equal of Tolkien.  I realize much
of this has been already said but it is worth emphasizing.  I seldom
buy a hard-cover sf book but I could not wait for the "Citidel of the
Autarch" to come out in paperback.  (Unfortunately, the last of the
series though still excellent, is the least satisfying, probably
because most of the mysteries are cleared up.)  I hope Wolfe carries
through with his New Sun and gives us some more of his fantastic
universe.

Bob Bibbero (Bibbero.PMSDMKT at HI-MULTICS)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 83 1812-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #38
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 38

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (13 msgs)


















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 1983 1629-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Who played Anakin Skywalker

     Besides, James Earl Jones is a bit on the dark side himself...

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: Tue 14 Jun 83 17:04:27-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Jedi Afterlife

     Darth Vader doesn't vanish because he was "more machine than man"
when he died. The machine part wouldn't have gone anyway.

     I'm surprised nobody has commented on my hypothesis that these
persona of dead Jedi are not in fact separate entities, but either
wholly living WITHIN Luke Skywalker or only able to manifest
themselves by using Luke as a link into this world.

     Nobody but Luke sees them. Nobody but Luke hears them. They
somehow manage to get around the universe and find Luke. Assuming they
are not omnicient after death, how do they travel? Or are they
omnipresent? Anomalies would appear to indicate that the persona of
dead Jedi can't be manifested other than in the presence of a Jedi who
was there when they died. For instance, Obi Wan SHOULD have been able
to warn Luke et al. of the trap set by the Emperor, and I assume he
didn't because he didn't KNOW about it. I suggest that dead Jedi in
fact just live on as mental patterns within the mind of another Jedi
mind. That there is advantage to dying in the presence of such a
mind--i.e. you can then live on at least etherially--whereas if you
die in isolation your aura has no place to go. This is why Obi-Wan
smiled before Darth killed him... He knew that "if you strike me down
I shall become far stronger than even you realize, Darth". This is why
Yoda conveniently died with Luke nearby---and perhaps even why Yoda
had Luke return to his side after all his training was finished. It
also possibly explains why Luke's father appeared a fraction of a
second after the others... Each persona took some strength from the
force to materialize. There is probably a limit to how many persona
one Jedi can carry around and regenerate.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 1983 1735-PDT
From: Henry W. Miller <Miller at SRI-NIC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #36

     Question: Did anyone see Luke's Lightsaber after he threw it away
on the Death Star?  I don't recall seeing it after that scene.  (Guess
he'll have to make another.)  BTW, in the book, it describes Luke
building the one he used in RotJ.

-HWM

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 83 0:21:03-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Lightsabers making noises - (nf)

     Yes, In the final forest scene it was shown hanging from his
belt.

John Eaton

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 83 10:28:49-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!tekcad!keithl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Explanation for Imp. Armor

     Why is Imperial armor so ineffective?  Ever hear of the M-16
rifle?  The M1 tank? Perhaps the armor is made on a planet with
powerful lobbyists... or made from Wisconsin cheese.


Keith Lofstrom
uucp:   {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!teklabs!tekcad!keithl
CSnet:  keithl@tek
ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jun 83 4:14:51-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!ucbmonet.arnold @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Princess who? - (nf)

     I've been wondering about this one for a while.

     If Leia's mother is Vader's (former) wife, why is she a princess?
The only excuse I can think of is that her mother was royal herself,
in which case, it would have been quite obvious to anyone that Leia
was Vader's child (anyone can count to nine) since both Leia and her
mother would have been public figures.  Since this is quite obviously
not the case, whence the title?

                Ken

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 12:26:25-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!genrad!wjh12!foxvax1!brunix!gh @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "BIGS was right!"

     In my first viewing of the original Star Wars movie, Biggs
     appeared in an early scene.  This scene has been omitted in
     subsequent releases which I have seen.

                -- David Smith

     This is the first that I have heard that there might be different
versions of SW films around.  Does anyone have any other evidence on
the topic?

Graeme Hirst, Brown University Computer Science
{allegra, decvax, ihnp4}!brunix!gh      gh.brown@udel-relay

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 13:12:24-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Any Imperial Non-Humans? - (nf)

     Keeping all emperial forces human encouraged the Nazi comparison.
(Master Race)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 19:33:42 EDT
From: QUINT@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: actors for darth vader

     According to the credits at the end of the movie (checked four
times), the actor who played Anakin Skywalker was/is Sebastian Shaw.

     Side note: Kenny Baker, who is inside R2D2, also played Paploo,
an Ewok.

                                            /amqueue

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1983  16:44 EDT
From: VAF@CMU-CS-C
Subject: RotJ (assorted answers and comments -- and spoilers)

   Date: 8 Jun 83 15:41:14 PDT (Wednesday)
   From: Woods.PA at PARC-MAXC.ARPA
   To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
   Re:   RotJ (assorted answers and comments -- and spoilers)
   .
   .
   .
       From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
       In ANH, Darth Vader was the altimate bad guy, evil to the core.
       I don't even recall any reference to a superior evil (the
       emperor).

       When DV walked into the meeting of the Generals, he announced
       that the Emperor had dissolved the Senate, thereby removing the
       last vestiges of the old Republic.  I agree that DV's
       subservience to the Emperor became more and more pronounced as
       the trilogy progressed.

     Perhaps this is because, at least for what we see, Vader is
physically closer to the Emperor? In ANH, Vader is never in the
presence of the Emperor, and thus can probably get away will less
subservience.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1983  16:46 EDT
From: VAF@CMU-CS-C
Subject: RotJ (assorted answers and comments -- and spoilers)

  Date: 8 Jun 83 15:41:14 PDT (Wednesday)
  From: Woods.PA at PARC-MAXC.ARPA
  To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
  Re:   RotJ (assorted answers and comments -- and spoilers)
  .
  .
  .
    From: "KEN MOREAU AT CLOSUS c/o" <DEC-SFL at DEC-Marlboro>
    The only "continuing" character among all episodes is Yoda, since
    he has certainly been around for the first trilogy, and there is
    nothing to suggest he won't be around for the next one.

      Lucas once claimed that the only characters present in all nine
 episodes would be the droids; in fact, the movies can largely be
 viewed as a story told by C3PO, which makes his synopsis in RotJ
 particularly amusing.

     Not only that, but if you remember ANH, it makes his first
conversation with Luke a bit amusing... "... I'm not very good at
telling stories, at least not at making them interesting..."

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1983 1653-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <uc.rgh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: RotJ (No spoiler)

     Look for a bad *special* effect next time you see the movie: the
close-up of Luke's Light Saber about 2/3 of the way through the movie
(I won't describe the scene since that would constitute a
semi-spoiler.)  It looks like a flashlight with silver Christmas paper
wrapped around it.  It even has a box on the side that looks sort of
like the magnet-pack for flashlights that stick to things.  You'd
think with a budget of $32 M that they'd be able to do a little
better.
                                        -Randy

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 15 June 1983  22:13-EDT
From: Roger H. Goun <G.ROGER @ MIT-EECS>
Subject: Alternate endings for RotJ

     The first time I saw RotJ, I wondered about one of Han's lines
just before the rebels took off to attack Death Star II.  He said
something like, "I get the feeling I'm never going to see her again,"
referring to the Falcon.  Since Lando and the Falcon escaped unharmed
from the explosion of the Death Star, I felt that line was somehow out
of place.

     Now a friend who's seen an unreleased version of RotJ tells me
that in that version, the Falcon was consumed at the last moment as it
was escaping from the exploding Death Star, presumably killing Lando
and co-pilot.  This seems like a much more dramatic (though perhaps
less mass-appealing) ending.  My friend says that there are other
differences from the released version, as well.

     When I get to see this for myself I'll report any other
differences I see.  Does anyone know if either of the other Star Wars
movies had unreleased versions, and what the differences were?

                                -- Roger

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 17 Jun 83 1838-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #39
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Friday, 17 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 39

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (16 msgs)

































----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 13:07:56-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!cca!csin!cjh (Chip Hitchcock) @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: News from mail

        The episode mentioned appears in the published script (see THE
ART OF STAR WARS) and in part 1 of the original comic book serial
(which came out a few days before the movie). My understanding is that
it was filmed and edited in, but dropped when Lucas decided that 135
minutes was too long for the first film.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 3:25:39-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Yoda Question - (nf)

     Something that has bothered me ever since ESB came out was
whether or not Darth Vader knew about Yoda. It would seem that if he
did then he would have tried to destroy him, and yet he has never even
mentioned his name. When Darth first fought with Luke he was surprised
by his powers and said that "Obi-Wan has taught you well" as if there
were no other way he could have been trained. Comments ?

John Eaton   ...hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 13:07:50-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Jedi Spoiler

     Vader died in the end because some of those blue bolts went into
him as he carried the Emperor.  You can even see his skull glowing
sometimes.

------------------------------

Date: 16 June 1983 11:00 EDT
From: Arthur L. Chin <ARTHUR @ MIT-ML>
Subject: Return of the Jedi Lag...

     Here are a couple of quips about the recent technicality debates:

     1) Endor-stationary Space Station: I think that it is possible
for the Death Star to orbit at such a low radius if it were made out
of extremely light materials, like aluminum.  The Death Star could
also be orbiting at a greater speed than the moon's.  Remember, film
technology is far more advanced than that of space!

     2) Why did the Emperor let the rebels know the exact location of
the shield on Endor?  Ego, for one.  But there could be a more
practical reason.  If the rebels were led by the Emperor to a location
which was way off, the rebels would be wary and think that a trap was
imminent.  Since they did find the shield generator, they were not as
cautious and fell right into the trap.  However, Ewok Entropy saved
the day.

     3) Lastly, how could Darth's and the Emperor's ship come into a
bay which held air directly from airless space?  Through a
semi-permeable membrane, of course.  One that would allow metallic
objects (like the ship) through, but not let air out.  The meteors
could be a problem, though...

                                Cheers in Space,

                                arthur@MIT-ML

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1983 0948-PDT
Subject: RotJ: Blue Elephant for Vice Emperor
From: FEATHER@USC-ISIF (Martin S. Feather)

     ... "Worst muppet: the blue elephant - gimme a break." ...

     Didn't you notice when that blue elephant stomped on Jabba's left
rear pseudopod, distracting the ugly son-of-a-slug, and thus saving
Luke from Certain Death?

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 13:07:35-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxa!fdf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Different Versions of Star Wars I

     Did the first release of SW I (whose title I can't remember, not
being a blue elephant) have "Episode IV - ... " in the opening scene?
I remember seeing this the second time around, but I cannot remember
whether it was there the first time.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 83 21:04:35-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!mhuxi!mhuxt!eagle!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "BIGS was right!"

     In SW:ANH the book, there is a scene in which Luke meets up with
Biggs, his best friend, at a 'gas station' on Tatooine.  Biggs is just
about to embark to join the Rebels and he urges Luke to do the same.
Unfortunately, in seven viewings, I've never seen that scene in the
movie.

     However, I know for a fact there are different versions of TESB
out.  When I saw it in Florida, the scene with Vadar with his mask off
(showing the back of his head) was in; when I saw it in NJ, it was not
in.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 9:24:43-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: physics bug in RotJ

     The light from a light sabre does not come from the handle and
stop at a set distance, it is a side effect of a force field which
does stop at a set distance.  (Sheer speculation).

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 83 10:50:16-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdccsu3!ee163ht @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Leia's Father

     There's been talk of late about why Darth Vader did not know of
the existence of Leia.  (I do not recall whether or not she and Luke
were supposed to be twins).  But otherwise I do not recall necessarily
anyone saying that Luke and Leia had the same father.  Is it not
possible that after Luke was born, he was given to Uncle Owen and Aunt
Beru and his mother went somewhere else (Alderaan perhaps)?  Leia, in
theory, might still be called a Skywalker, since they shared the same
mother.

     Does this sound possible, or is there evidence disproving it?

Allyn Fratkin
UC San Diego

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 10:01:14-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Who played Darth Vader's face (spoiler?)

"Darth Vader played by James Earl Jones?"

     Wrong!  The voice is lip-synched over, but Darth at the end is
played by Sebastian somebody (listed in the credits as Anakin
Skywalker), the same guy who shows up in blue fuzz at the end.

                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 9:41:08-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!jonab @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: levitating Death Stars

     The answer is very simple.  The Death Star was placed in
lunarsynchronous? orbit around Endor.

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 83 21:04:29-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!hoyme @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: re RotJ (not a spoiler) - (nf)

     I agree with kpk.  There were alot of open questions concerning
the fall of the previous Republic.  I think if Lucas wants to make the
first trilogy, there are plenty of hooks to tie into.

   Ken Hoyme
   University of Minnesota

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 23:14:06-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!oz @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Father

     Sorry, but if I remember correctly the hologram Kenobi said "your
twin sister."  Biology is not my strong point, but I think if you have
a twin the odds are in your favor that you AND your twin had the same
father.

     Of course, if I don't remember correctly I have, yet again, made
a fool of myself, but HEY, that's what marketing people are all about.

                        OZ
                        seismo!rlgvax!oz

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 11:16:09-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!drforsey @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The real hero of SW1 and SW2

     In addition to the comments about the "real hero" of SW, and ESB,
does anyone else get the feeling that the little droid is not your
everyday run of the mill astrodroid? Comments like Luke's in SW:

          "I've never seen such devotion in a droid before"

     R2-D2's ability to work undercover, both in tricking Luke into
remove the restraining bolt in SW, getting into all sorts of high-
security computer systems (the ever-present I/O port), and getting the
light saber to Luke from Jabba's sail-barge, all seem to indicate that
R2 is a very special machine.

     Granted these impressions are due to the fact that the trilogy
does not give much info on what a normal droid can do, but since the
droids are the only characters that will appear in all nine films
perhaps there is something different about them. Even C3PO exceeds his
design specifications (SW: "I'm really only a interpreter, and not
very good at telling stories") when he gives his account of his
adventures to the Ewoks.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 19:12:38-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: 2 Star Wars?

     The SW first release was not the same as the SW - A NEW HOPE
release which came out when SW-ANH and SW-TESB were playing back to
back -- at least as shown at the University Theatre in Toronto.

     Specifically, the ANH release was more than 15 minutes shorter.
When I first saw it (after seeing SW many, many times in all-day, pay
first thing in the morning and stay all you want Northern Ontario
theatres) I could have told you which scenes were deleted, but it all
blurs now.

Laura

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 10:41:50-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!grindal @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: More Yoda Questions

     An earlier article has reminded me of many questions I have had
about Yoda.  He always seems to pop up in the stories just when
needed, but no one else in the galaxy seems to know about him - even
the emperor!  So here goes:

     1) I couldn't think there was more than one year between ESB and
Rotj (in Star Wars time that is), so how does a 900 year old being go
from robust health (remember Luke's ship) to decrepit old age in that
time?  This brings up question:

     2) What about Yoda's race.  Surely he isn't the only short, cute,
green muppet in the galaxy.  Are all Yodas (for lack of a better word)
strong in the force?  Are they the source of all Jedi training?  Are
there any left to help Luke rebuild the Jedi?

     3) If Yoda was so strong in the force how come the Emperor never
felt his "disturbence of the force".  In either ANH or ESB (I think
ESB) the emperor refers to Luke in this way.  If he can detect Luke,
then Yoda should send his meters right off the scale. Or can people
very strong in the force "mask" themselves somehow?

     4) Long Life.  In Rotj when Luke says to Yoda that he can't die,
Yoda replies, "Strong am I in the force, but not that strong".  Does
this mean that the force, properly controlled and in sufficient
strength, can prolong life or even give immortality?  What a
development that would be!

     The question I am most interested in is #2 above.  Replies and
discussion would be most welcome.

                David (can I have an Ewok as a pet) Grindal
                (...!utzoo!utcsrgv!grindal)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jun 83 1716-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #40
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 40

Today's Topics:
                Books - Daniel Barr & Harlan Ellison &
             Stephen Donaldson and Gene Wolfe (2 msgs) &
                     Gor and Heinlein (5 msgs) &
Eric Frank Russell and Mack Reynolds (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 9:42:16-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!gcsherwood@Ucb-Vax
Subject: Daniel Barr

     Has anyone out there read anything by Barr?  I have come across
two novels of his in paperback (one in a used paperback store and one
in a supermarket -- but none in the sf racks at bookstores).  He has
written Space Relations (a slightly gothic interplanetary novel) (sub-
title his) and A Planet in Arms (I am not sure of the last title).

     According to the list of books in print, his aren't, which is a
shame.  They are hard science fiction and well written, especially
Space Relations.  He does not have trick endings and the characters
are well fleshed out.  He is not as good as Heinlein at his best, but
far better than Heinlein at his worst (which still ain't bad).  He
reminds me somewhat of James P. Hogan, but without the intense
emphasis on science fact.

     It is a damned shame that he has received such cavalier
treatment.

                - geoff sherwood -
                  U. of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1983 1257-PDT
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #37
From: Dave Dyer  <DDYER@USC-ISIB>

     Harlan Ellison is the screenwriter for "Bug Jack Barron".  On one
of his recent guest appearances on "Hour 25" (KPFK- 90.7 FM in L.A.,
Fridays 10pm - midnight) He talked about the project and read a scene.

     He said that due to the constraints of the medium he was taking
large liberties with the story line and characters, but trying to
bring the essence of the original to the screen.  Since no writer ever
says "I'm doing a hack job - and you won't recognise the result" I'd
say to not expect a literal rendition, but based on Harlan's
evangelical seriousness about writing; do expect a creditable job.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 83 23:35:58-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: White Gold Wielder --SPOILER--

     Well, I just finished this book.

     I agree with those who said they disliked it.  Here's why:

     First of all, I have liked the series, or else I would not have
read all six.  Unlike some, however, I tolerated rather than enjoyed
Thomas Covenant's (The Unbeliever, Ur-Lord, Ringthane, Giantfriend,
Earthfriend, Halfhand, Illender, Prover of Life, Ring Wielder and
White Gold Wielder - sheesh! How many titles can they give him?)
despair, and it just got to be too much in this last (?) book.  Just
about every line has somebody "wincing" with pain because somebody
said something nasty.  Lines full of powerful emotion are bandied
about so frequently they become meaningless.  Donaldson is left to
search for greater and greater superlatives to get his point through
by the end of the book.

     Very little happens in this book, really, for 475 pages.  Most of
it is filled with small conflicts which serve to kill people or show
how good Giants and Haruchai are.  Still more exists to show the power
of Vain and leave you wondering why you don't get to know his secret.

     And what is this great secret?  That Vain is to form the new
Staff of Law?  That's what everybody thought they knew at the end of
The One Tree.  Why was this secret so grave that if anybody knew it,
it would not come to pass.  Supposedly ur-Viles went about killing
Waynhim just because they thought they had revealed this secret.  It
wasn't held back just to keep TC from forming the Staff right away -
that had to wait until Vain locked on to Finail.  It all seems rather
contrived to me.

     So does TC's death.  Not much reason for him to die.  The local
God pulled him from death by snakebite last time, and could easily do
it again.  Of course, now that the Laws of Death and Life are kaput,
we'll still see lots of Covenant floating about like old Obiwan from
another famous trilogy.

     I don't see at all why Covenant and the Despiser are the same
person.  Sure TC is full of despair etc. and his leprosy can be linked
to the Land, but the Land existed for some time before TC ever visited
it, and it was striken by Sunbane long after TC got his disease.  And
since TC and LF are the same, why is it that we are told LF didn't buy
a farm with TC?

     Finally, does anybody really think they understand the character
of Linden Avery?  We all know about her past and her worries, but
giving odd traits and despair to a character doesn't make her 3-D.
For one, she doesn't strike me very much as a female character in
spite of the fact she's in love with TC.

     No dice, Donaldson.  You could have done better than this.

        Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 83 6:17:44-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: shadow of the torturer and thomas covenant

     Well I finally read SotT. It was my eighth time trying to read
it, and I didnt have anything else to read, but I still can't believe
I got it down. It seems that everywhere I go and talk about science
fiction people are horrified that I have never read SotT or "can't
believe" that I stopped reading TC after the third book, and only read
*it* because I got all three as a Christmas present from my brother.

     To all of you who are shaking your head at my obvious
brain-damage, I can tell you exactly why I find both series so hard to
read:

     No matter how beautiful and well-crafted the writing,
     if the main character could drop dead on the next page and I
     would feel nothing then I am not enjoying the book.

     Anybody *else* feel that way? Incidentally, Gene Wolfe is not the
first person who has "literary style" and has written fantasy. Peter
S. Beagle comes to mind immediately, but Poul Anderson also has
written some of this. Then again, Poul Anderson has written
*everything*...

Laura Creighton
utzoo!utcsstat!laura

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 5:54:08-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!we13!otuxa!lsk @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Need ONE posting of GOR books author

     There was some reference to the "GOR" books a while back. Could
someone please post the author? I tried mailing a reply to the article
I saw, but never got an answer. Thanks.

-larry

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 10:53:48-PDT (Fri)
From: sun!gnu @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Let's make a place for Robert Heinlein on the Space Shuttle

     If anyone should go up in the shuttle, it should be Heinlein.

     His works inspired many of the current engineers, technicians,
and designers who have put us where we are on the edge of space.

     He's also quite old (over 80) and won't achieve his 70-year dream
of making it into space, unless we send him there quickly.

     He wrote a story in 1939 about the aged "father of space travel",
Delos D. Harriman, who isn't allowed into space because of government
regulations and his deteriorating medical condition.  Harriman
secretly outfits a down-on-their-luck engineer and pilot and they
smuggle him to the moon, where he dies, happily looking back at Earth,
just after touchdown.  The story is "Requiem", and it appears in "The
Past Though Tomorrow", among many other places.

     I think that the least we, as a society, can do for Mr. Robert
Anton Heinlein is to make a place in the Space Shuttle for him -- and
soon, before it's too late.

        John Gilmore

------------------------------

Date: 19 June 1983 04:03 edt
From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: Heinlein & GOR

     Was "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" really libertarian fiction
just because a bunch of characters spouted the libertarian party line?
I don't consider "Little Drummer Girl" liberation fiction or "Moll
Flanders" feminist fiction.  Remember, they were all living in
communes on the moon.  Loners (male or female) didn't do too well
until they learned how to accomodate to the society.

     It has been seven or eight years since I read the book but if I
remember correctly the plot revolved around a colonial rebellion in
which the moon colony was being economically exploited by an out of
touch Earth government.  The whole book is actually rather Marxist in
tone.  After all, the bad guys put up the money to develop a moon
colony, and arranged to populate the area.  The Marxists usually point
out that the colonialists exploit the native population which has an
intrinsic ownership of land and their own ouput.  In this case there
was no native population, but the moral imperative was still on the
side of the moon dwellers since the moon was now THEIR WORLD (hence
the title).

     As a capitalist I could appreciate the plight of the millions who
had invested in developing a lunar colony.  There is both money and
pride involved here since I know a lot of people who feel that stellar
colonization is a human imperative and that a moon base would be a
good first step.  Finding out that Mars base is less interested in the
destiny of mankind and more interested in a better algae farming
subsidy would come as a bit of a blow.

     As a humanist I realized that the people on the colony ARE the
lunar natives.  Bradbury did this well in his Martian Chronicles when
the family finally gets to see the Martians, their own reflections
staring up at them from the water in a canal.  I approve of "sweat
equity" and have seen enough history to know how easily the working
man can be exploited.  We take a lot of stuff for granted.  Look at
the Chartists in England, the labor movement here before the NLRB,
Japan in the 50's, Poland today, or the moon in Heinlein's book.

     I still think The Moon ... is one of his best and that a lot of
his later stuff was unreadable, which brings me to the GOR books.  The
GOR books seem to be in an old tradition started by the Marquis deSade
who was also an ethical naturalist though the term was still new back
then.  Their books are largely sex and violence all too liberally
larded with philosophical tract.  Anyone who can stay sexually aroused
for an hour while reading out loud from Free to Choose (or Das Kapital
for that matter) has other problems.  deSade was imprisoned for
excessive leniency during his tenure as a judge.  He also had a sense
of humor (read Justine through to the end if you can).  His heir took
a demotion to comte (count) and the current Comte deSade is trying to
clear his ancestor's good name.  From what I gather the GOR books are
a lot more readible than most pornography which isn't saying much.

P.S. I know TANSTAAFL comes from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
but if the New York Times is right Yuri Andropov is claiming
the same thing.

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 83 22:24:07-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Let's make a place for Robert Heinlein on the Space
Subject: Shuttle

     Arthur C. Clarke should get a spot on the shuttle before
Heinlein.

     I'm basing my opinion solely on the basis of the quality of their
respective recent writings... "Fountains of Paradise" is a damn sight
better than Heinlein's recent trash.  Of course, most of Clarke's old
stuff is better than Heinlein, too.

     My apologies to devout Heinlein fans.

Jeff Myers@uwvax

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 83 17:58:20-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!csu-cs!silver @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Let"s make a place for Robert Heinlein on the Space
Subject: Shuttle

     Sounds good.  Now, how *exactly* do you propose we go about it?

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 09:01:15 EDT
From: DAVID.LEWIN  <LEWIN@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: Eric Frank Russell

     I'm not sure that I'd consider Eric Frank Russell a libertarian,
since it seems that libertarianism implies a particular economic
arrangement, free-market capitalism. He was, indeed, a
pacifist/anarchist in many of his writings--including "And Then There
Were None", otherwise known as "The Great Explosion". Two of his best
stories are "Late Night Final", which definitely shows his idea of a
mature civilization, and "I Am Nothing" --in which afuture Alexander
is "conquered" by a little girl.

     Other stories involving non-libertarian anarchism include
Sturgeon's "The Skills of Xanadu" and LeGuin's "The Dispossessed".

------------------------------

Date: Friday, June 17, 1983 11:31PM-EDT
From: James M. Turner <RG.JMTURN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: Mack Reynolds

     Mack died of cancer just before Boskone XX, at which he was
scheduled to be guest of honor. His obituary appeared in SFC.

     The last piece of work Mack completed before he died was a short
story, which is contained in Compounded Interests, published by NESFA
Press.

                        James

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1983 0931-EDT
Subject: Mack Reynolds
From: LEWIS at BBNG

     Reynolds died in January of cancer.  I believe he was 65.

Daryle

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 7:45:35-PDT (Fri)
From: ihnp4!ixn5h!dcn @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Concerning Mack Reynolds

     I was also wondering what happened to Mack Reynolds.  The latest
book I have is "Lagrange 5", published in 1979.  It is similar to an
earlier book of his called "Satellite City".  Then this small article
in Analog caught my eye.

                Dave Newkirk
                ihnp4!ixn5h!dcn

----------------------------------------------------------

Mack Reynolds   1917-1983

     Mack Reynolds, a prolific contributor well known to Analog
readers since the late 1950's, died of cancer in a Texas hospital on
January 30, 1983.  According to Mike Ashley's Complete Index to
Astounding/Analog, he was Analog's third most prolific contributor and
also one of the most popular; he was the only author ever to have as
many as ten novels serialized here.  Mack Reynolds's stories are
perhaps best known for their persistent and thought-provoking
exploration of alternative socioeconomic systems.*

* from Analog, July 1983, page 65.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 20 Jun 83 1753-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #41
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 20 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 41

Today's Topics:
                    Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 83 18:01:25-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihlpf!dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: "Re: Dr. Who guide query - (nf)"

DOCTOR WHO STORY GUIDE

     This is a brief guide to the stories of Dr. Who. The number of
episodes for each story is indicated in brackets and if a book has
been published this is denoted by an `*'.

WILLIAM HARTNELL AS `THE DOCTOR'

First Season - November 23, 1963 to September 12, 1964
------------

1/ AN UNEARTHLY CHILD (4)* -Ian, Barbra, and Susan
2/ THE DALEKS (7)*
3/ EDGE OF DESTRUCTION (2)
4/ MARCO POLO (7)
5/ KEYS OF MARINUS (6)*
6/ THE AZTECS (4)
7/ THE SENSORITES (6)
8/ THE FRENCH REVOLUTION (6)

Second Season - October 31, 1964 to July 24, 1965
-------------

9/ PLANET OF GIANTS (3)
10/ THE DALEK INVASION OF EARTH (6)* - Susan leaves
11/ THE RESCUE (2) - Vicki joins
12/ THE ROMANS (4)
13/ THE WEB PLANET (6)*
14/ THE CRUSADERS (4)*
15/ THE SPACE MUSEUM (4)
16/ THE CHASE (6) - Ian and Barbra leave, Steven joins
17/ THE TIME MEDDLER (4)

Third Season - September 11, 1965 to July 16, 1966
------------

18/ GALAXY FOUR (4)
19/ MISSION TO THE UNKNOWN (1) - none of the regular cast
                               appeared
20/ THE MYTH MAKERS (4) - Vicki leaves, katerina joins
21/ THE DALEK MASTER PLAN (12)* - Katerina killed, Sara
                                Kingdom killed
22/ THE MASSACRE (4) - Dodo joins at the end of the story
23/ THE ARK (4)
24/ THE CELESTIAL TOYMAKER (4)
25/ THE GUNFIGHTERS (4)
26/ THE SAVAGES (4) - Steven leaves
27/ THE WAR MACHINES (4) - Dodo leaves, Ben and Polly join

Fourth Season - September 10, 1966 to July 1, 1967
-------------

28/ THE SMUGGLERS (4)
29/ THE TENTH PLANET (4)*

PATRICK TROUGHTON AS `THE DOCTOR'

30/ POWER OF THE DALEKS (6)
31/ THE HIGHLANDERS (4) - Jamie joins
32/ THE UNDERWATER MENACE (4)
33/ MOONBASE (4)*
34/ MACRA TERROR (4)
35/ THE FACELESS ONES (6) - Ben and Polly leave
36/ EVIL OF THE DALEKS (7) - Victoria joins

Fifth Season - September 2, 1967 to June 1, 1968
------------

37/ TOMB OF THE CYBERMEN (4)*
38/ THE ABOMINABLE SNOWMAN (6)*
39/ THE ICE WARRIORS (6)*
40/ ENEMY OF THE WORLD (6)*
41/ THE WEB OF FEAR (6)*
42/ FURY FROM THE DEEP (6) - Victoria leaves
43/ WHEEL IN SPACE (6) - Zoe joins

Sixth Season - August 10, 1968 to June 21, 1969
------------

44/ THE DOMINATORS (5)
45/ THE MIND ROBBER (5)
46/ INVASION (8)
47/ THE KROTONS (4)*
48/ SEEDS OF DEATH (6)
49/ THE SPACE PIRATES (6)
50/ THE WAR GAMES (10)* - Jamie and Zoe leave

JON PERTWEE AS `THE DOCTOR'

Seventh Season - January 3 1970 to June 20, 1970
--------------

51/ THE SPEARHEAD FROM SPACE (4)* - Liz Shaw joins
52/ THE SILURIANS (7)*
53/ AMBASSADORS OF DEATH (7)
54/ INFERNO (7) - Liz leaves

Eighth Season - January 2, 1971 to June 19, 1971
-------------

55/ TERROR OF THE AUTONS (4)* - Jo Grant joins
56/ MIND OF EVIL (6)
57/ CLAWS OF AXOS (4)*
58/ COLONY IN SPACE (6)*
59/ THE DAEMONS (5)*

Ninth Season - January 1, 1972 to June 24, 1972
------------

60/ DAY OF THE DALEKS (4)*
61/ CURSE OF PELADON (4)*
62/ THE SEA DEVILS (6)*
63/ THE MUTANTS (6)*
64/ THE TIME MONSTER (6)

Tenth Season - December 30, 1972 to June 23, 1973
------------

65/ THE THREE DOCTORS (4)*
66/ CARNIVAL OF MONSTERS (4)*
67/ FRONTIER IN SPACE (6)*
68/ PLANET OF THE DALEKS (6)*
69/ THE GREEN DEATH (6)* - Jo Grant leaves

Eleventh Season - December 15, 1973 to June 8, 1974
---------------

70/ THE TIME WARRIOR (4)* - Sarah Jane Smith joins
71/ INVASION OF THE DINOSAURS (6)*
72/ DEATH TO THE DALEKS (4)*
73/ MONSTER OF PELADON (6)*
74/ PLANET OF THE SPIDERS (6)*

TOM BAKER AS `THE DOCTOR'

Twelfth Season - December 28, 1974 to May 10, 1975
--------------

75/ ROBOT (4)* - Harry Sullivan joins
76/ ARK IN SPACE (4)*
77/ SONTARAN EXPERIMENT (2)*
78/ GENESIS OF THE DALEKS (6)*
79/ REVENGE OF THE CYBERMEN (4)*

Thirteenth Season - August 30, 1975 to March 6, 1976
-----------------

80/ TERROR OF THE ZYGONS (4)* - Harry leaves
81/ PLANET OF EVIL (4)*
82/ PYRAMIDS OF MARS (4)*
83/ ANDROID INVASION (4)*
84/ BRAIN OF MORBIUS (4)*
85/ SEEDS OF DOOM (6)*

Fourteenth Season - September 3, 1977 to April 2, 1977
-----------------

86/ THE MASQUE OF MANDRAGORA (4)*
87/ THE HAND OF FEAR (4)* - Sarah leaves
88/ THE DEADLY ASSASIN (4)*
89/ FACE OF EVIL (4)* - Leela joins
90/ ROBOTS OF DEATH (4)*
91/ TALONS OF WENG-CHIANG (6)*

Fifteenth Season - September 3, 1977 to March 11, 1978
----------------

92/ HORROR OF FANG ROCK (4)*
93/ THE INVISABLE ENEMY (4)* - K9 joins
94/ IMAGE OF THE FENDAHL (4)*
95/ THE SUNMAKERS (4)
96/ UNDERWORLD (4)*
97/ INVASION OF TIME (6)* - Leela leaves

Sixteenth Season - September 2, 1978 to February 24, 1979
----------------

98/ THE RIBOS OPERATION (4)* - Romana joins, K9 Mk 2
99/ THE PIRATE PLANET (4)
100/ STONES OF BLOOD (4)*
101/ ANDROIDS OF TARA (4)*
102/ POWER OF KROLL (4)*
103/ THE ARMEGGEDDON FACTOR (6)*

Seventeenth Season - September 1, 1979 to January 12, 1980
------------------

104/ DESTINY OF THE DALEKS (4)* - Romana regenerates
105/ CITY OF DEATH (4)
106/ CREATURE FROM THE PIT (4)*
107/ NIGHTMARE OF EDEN (4)*
108/ HORNS OF NIMON (4)*

Eighteenth Season - August 30, 1980 to March 21, 1981
-----------------

109/ THE LEISURE HIVE (4)*
110/ MEGLOS (4)
111/ FULL CIRCLE (4) - Adric joins
112/ STATE OF DECAY (4)*
113/ WARRIORS' GATE (4)* - Romana and K9 leave
114/ KEEPER OF TRAKEN (4)* - Nyssa joins
115/ LOGOPOLIS (4) - Tegan Jovanka joins

PETER DAVISON AS `THE DOCTOR'

Nineteenth Season - January 4, 1982 to March 30, 1982
-----------------

116/ CASTROVALVA (4)
117/ FOUR TO DOOMSDAY (4)
118/ KINDA (4)
119/ THE VISITATION (4)*
120/ THE BLACK ORCHID (2)
121/ EARTHSHOCK (4) - Adric killed
122/ TIME FLIGHT (4) - Tegan left behind

     This information sheet was produced by Dean Shewring for the
Doctor Who Information Network - 1982

The Doctor Who
Information Network
P.O. Box 1764
Peterborough, Ontario
Canada K9J 7X6

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 13:12:35-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Doctor Who Episode Guide

     To complete the previously listed Doctor Who episode guide, here
are the titles for the current (20th) season, as listed in a recent
NADWAS newsletter:

123/ Arc of Infinity (4 parts)
124/ Snakedance (4)
125/ Mawdryn Undead (4)
126/ Terminus (4)
127/ Enlightenment (4)
128/ The King's Demons (2)

     NADWAS is the North American Doctor Who Appreciation Society.

------------------------------

Date: Mon 20 Jun 83 08:20:23-MDT
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: Dr. Who

     According to my main source of Dr. Who information the first
season with Peter Davison as the Doctor was being shown on PBS in
Miami.  North Carolina's PBS station is now showing Dr. Who episodes
with Jon Pertwee (Doctor #3) as the Doctor.  Chicago is also showing
the Dr. Who stories with Jon Pertwee as the Doctor, but has edited
them into movie versions.

     The second season of Davison consisted of the following stories,
each one consisting of 4 parts except the last one which had only 2
parts to it.  Right now I have only the titles on hand.  More details
to follow when I can remember to write it all down.

SECOND SEASON (DAVISON)

Arc of Infinity
Snakedance
Mawdryn Undead
Terminus
Enlightenment
King's Demons

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



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*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jun 83 1755-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #42
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 42

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (12 msgs)























----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 83 18:43:50 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: FALCON and LANDO killed at end?

     Perhaps they removed it because they didn't want to deal with any
controversy generated as a result of them killing off the only two
black main characters in the movie (Vader's Voice-- James Earl Jones
and Lando--Billy Dee Williams).

-Ron

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 1983 1841-EDT
From: Joseph A. Frisbie <JAF at MIT-SPEECH at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #37

     I could be wrong, but I didn't Yoda was a Jedi, he just trained
them.  If this is so, then there would be no problem with dragging up
other groups that use the force, or tossing the random force weilder
now and then.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 1983 1943-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: Star Wars Versions & Lukes Lightsabre

     You don't have to read to book to know where Luke got his second
lightsabre.  At one point, Vader says to Luke, "I see that you have
constructed a new light sabre."

     Also, I have friends who went to the first Star Wars 5 or 10
times, and they insisted that there were two versions.  In particular,
the scene where they first see the Death Star was slightly different.

Larry

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 17 Jun 1983 18:48-PDT
Subject: ANH/RotJ - C-3PO's story-telling capabilities
From: jim at rand-unix

     In ANH C-3PO is talking to Luke, who asks him about the
Rebellion.  Just before he delivers his famous line, R2-D2 gives a
whistle like we would use to attract someone's attention
(high-low-higher).  Suddenly C-3PO gets a lot dumber.  I claim that he
is intentionally dissimulating here, in response to an untranslated
warning from R2-D2.  He is quite articulate throughout the series, so
there is no particular reason to believe that he was telling the truth
about his story-telling in ANH.

------------------------------

Date: Saturday, 18 June 1983, 00:40-EDT
From: Susan L. Felshin <SR.FELSHIN at MIT-SPEECH>
Subject: More Yoda Answers

     Q: Why does Yoda go from 900, hale and hearty to 901 and decrepit
and dying?

     A: Simple.  Yoda implies that the force can prolong life.  He
uses the force to sustain his life until he can train another Jedi to
succeed him (since he is the last).  Why doesn't he die after training
Obi-wan?  Yoda is strong with the force and has read the script.  He
knows Kenobi won't last long enough to train Luke.  Having finished
Luke's training, he is free to die, so he does.  (But why does he say
"soon I will rest forever" or some such and then materialize at the
end of the film?  You call that eternal rest?  I don't.)

     Q: Where is the rest of Yoda's race?

     A: Well, for one thing, they probably aren't all strong in the
force.  Not all humans are.  They might all be dead.  According to one
of the SW books (I think - I'm not sure of the source), Chewbacca is
the last or nearly so of the Wookies.  The Empire blew up their
planet.  Why should the Empire stop at one planet?  (They didn't -
Alderan went boom, too.)

     Q: Why don't Vader and the Emperor sense Yoda?

     A: Nobody ever senses anybody else until they've either already
met or at least know of the other's existence.  Vader senses Kenobi,
not Luke, on the Death Star, then having met Luke (sort of - they were
in the same landing bay), can sense him.  The Emperor doesn't notice
Luke until Vader tells him about him (I think this is right).  Since
neither of the big baddies knows of Yoda's existence, they can't sense
him. (?)

While I'm at it ...

     Are Luke and Leia half siblings sharing the same mother?

     Don't be silly.  First, Kenobi says they're twins, but that
aside, Leia is the other hope (pretty weak one - her big threat:
you're going to regret this, we have friends in high places (who never
help)).  The force runs strong in the *Skywalker* family.

     Tongues of flame leap up from the depths ...

     Comment on the other six movies:

     I'm not sure I could take another 6 x 2 hours of lightsaber
fights.  Fortunately, though, Lucas has a golden opportunity to do
something really good with the next three; high tragedy and the
corruption of the Empire.  Cheap, too.  All this needs is good acting
(*where* are they going to find someone good enough to play Alec
Guiness (pardon me, Ben Kenobi) as a young man??), not flashy,
gratuitous special effects, excepting one scene where Kenobi throws
Anakin=>Vader into the volcano.  I only hope that Lucas can withstand
the hordes of popularly opinionated types screaming and yelling for
space opera.  (Three were nice, more would be painful.)

        Sue Felshin
        PaFotSftPoRCD
        and person who swore she wouldn't type a word
        but finally succumbed to the eternal flames of
        hell=sflovers. Sorry.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 1:57:38-EDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!richl @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Explanation for Imp. Armor

     Ahem. Wisconsin cheese, if left out for two weeks, will at least
stop an arrow, though perhaps not blaster fire. It will also break
one's toe if dropped.

A Wisconsin Native
Rick Lindsley

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 16:01:45-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!cires!nbires!ut-ngp!ables @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "BIGS was right!"

     I wasn't aware that Biggs was ever in a final release, but ANH
and TESB both had slight changes made to them after they were
released.  In ANH, when Han and Chewie are running from the troops on
the Deathstar, you hear one of the troops in that familiar (cloned)
voice say "Close the blast doors!"  Then Han and Chewie just barely
jump through them and the troops come upon the door just as it closes
and you hear "Open the blast doors, open the blast doors."  The "Close
the blast doors" was cut from subsequent releases.  I don't know why,
it takes all the humor out of the next line.  In TESB, when Luke is
suspended in the bacta fluid (recovering from the Wampa attack) there
were two views of him.  In one release you saw just Luke, in another
you saw Luke over the shoulder of Han and Leia who were just outside a
glass wall looking in.  I think the one they finally let out was with
Han and Leia in the picture, but I'm not absolutely sure.

-ka

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 0:19:14-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!tjiang @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Yoda Question - (nf)

     Darth Vader probably did not know about Yoda.  In one of the
Dagoba(sp?) scenes of RotJ, Obi-wan's ghost tells Luke that it was he
who had taught Darth but his training was not good enough to dissuade
Darth from the dark side.  Presumably only the real master, Yoda could
impart enough training and philosophy for a Jedi to resist the dark
side.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 21:21:59 EDT  (Fri)
From: Craig Stanfill <craig.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Levitating Death Stars

     It is probably a little silly to go trying to figure this stuff
out; 5 will get you 10 Lucas himself neither knows but cares.

     But I can't resist.  If I were building a Deathstar, and wanted
to have a stationary force-shield generator under me all the time, I
would build it at the L5 point near a moon rotationally synchronized
with its primary.  This would work; the Deathstar would be in a stable
orbit, and always directly 'above' the projector.  Is there any
evidence which would support or refute this?  Does it really matter?
(probably not).

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 13:38:23-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!tom @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: The real hero of SW1 and SW2 (tongue in cheek, no
Subject: spoiler)

     In response to the question about who the REAL heroes of the Star
Wars saga are:

     You are quite right.  There IS something very special about the
`droids.  At last the truth can be told (although marketing is
obligated to deny it until the yet-to-be-born Empire is reborn).

     R2-D2 and C3PO were/will be/are being (depending on your time
perspective) programmed by us here at RLG Corporation (aka CCI, Office
Systems Group).  We are in the midst of it now, and anticipate
finishing sometime very far in the future in a galaxy very far away.

     The reason it will take so long is that we have been taking John
Mashey's talks at the UNIX conferences to heart.  We are working on a
"small is beautiful" concept so we have a very small staff working on
the project (particularly small when you consider that the project is
essential for the salvation of the Empire).  This also explains
R2-D2's height.  We are also employing the scouts, fast prototypers,
et. al. from Mashey's "A Tale of Bulldozers and Motorcycles".  We
anticipate that Robbie the Robot is actually the result of one of our
future fast prototypers.

     Perhaps the most interesting point of the project is that the
'droids are not the direct result of an AI project, as might be
suspected.  Rather our attempts to program these clever little 'droids
are the direct result of the combined requests from marketing for
"essential" features in "OfficePower", our Office Automation product.

     As proof of my claim, you can easily see that R2-D2's extreme
hardiness and durability is the consequence of CCI's
"PerpetualProcessing" fault- tolerant design.

- Tom Beres
RLG Corporation / Computer Consoles, Inc.
{allegra, seismo, we13, mcnc, brl-bmd}!rlgvax!tom

PS - There is yet no proof to the claim that the breakup of Ma Bell
will result in the eventual evolution of Bell Labs into the Jedi
Knights.  However, we feel quite sure that the underlying battle
between the good and the dark sides of The Force is actually yet
another instantiation of the age-old conflict between ASCII and
EBCDIC.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 20:02:24-PDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!hao!csu-cs!morganr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: New theory for speeders

     Proposed method of propulsion for hoovercraft/speeders in ROTJ:

(proposed by a friend, 'Randy'), 'The speeders must have some kind of
repulsers out to the sides.  If you watch closely, the only
collinsions are head-on, where repulsers could not prevent an
accident.'

Karl of Godelbach
csu-cs!barnesd

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 1983 1020-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: Disturbance in the Force, and other topics

     Through all three movies, the characters feel "a disturbance in
the force" when the disturber is physically near, like within the same
Death Star.  The only time anyone felt a disturbance at interstellar
distances was when Aldebaran was destroyed, and even then they were
near (having almost reached it).  If Obi-wan never told Vader about
Yoda, and Vader never went near Dagoba (and why would he?) then he
need never have known about Yoda.

     Yoda wasn't in robust health in SW5 - he hobbled slowly when Luke
first met him, and had Luke carry him thereafter.  Presumably he hung
on long enough to train the "son of Skywalker," then allowed himself
to die.  Luke is apparently stronger in the Force than either Obi-wan
or Yoda, since he accomplished what they both thought was impossible,
so he is probably qualified to train more Jedi, especially with the
holograms around to advise him.

     I have the feeling that using the force to live forever would
turn one to the Dark Side.  Probably that's what the emperor did.
Speaking of the emperor, who trained him?  Was that even the Force
that he was using.  If so, his generals didn't know it.  Remember the
scene in SW4 where someone mocks Vader for his devotion to that old
discredited religion (or some such)?  One might laugh at Vader (once),
but no one would dare to laugh at the emperor.

Larry Seiler, Seiler@MIT-XX

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 21 Jun 83 1826-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #43
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Tuesday, 21 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 43

Today's Topics:
                      Music - SF Music (5 msgs),
               Film - DUNE (4 msgs) & WARGAMES (4 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 83 18:37:35-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!cca!ima!stevel @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Re: More music from tThe Minstrel - (nf)

     On sf music how about BLOWS AGAINST THE EMPIRE by Jeferson
Starship.

decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel

------------------------------

Date: 14 Jun 83  17:33 EDT (Tue)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: SF inspired music

     Worthy of mention is ROCKET MAN, (lyrics by Bernie Taupin, music
by Elton John) - which is more than obviously inspired by the short
story ROCKET MAN, from Ray Bradbury's "The Illustrated Man".

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 1983 2255-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: SF Music

     In 1968, Jefferson Airplane recorded "Crown of Creation", which
is a direct quote from REBIRTH by John Wyndham.  I wonder if they had
permission?  Probably not, since they don't list the credit.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1983  10:10 EDT (Thu)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF in music

     Should we include things like "Journey to the Center of the
Earth" by Rick Wakeman?  (An entire album that tells the clasic tale).

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 83 10:29:01-PDT (Sat)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!gcsherwood @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: SF inspired music

     One of the most sf-inspired "songs" has got to be "Karn Evil 9"
by Emerson, Lake, and Palmer.  I quote songs because it is actually
three (four, maybe) songs put together.  These songs are quite well
known (especially "Welcome back my Friends", which is part of the
first impression), so I won't go into details.  If you have not heard
these, they are worth a listen. As far as I know, they were not based
on any particular piece.

     One song that is based on an sf novel is "Sirens of Titan", by Al
Stewart (based on the novel of the same name by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.).
I found this song quite incomprehensible -- until I read the book
(which I also found fairly incomprehensible).  It's not that the
lyrics are unintelligible or anything, just that there are so many
references to the scenes and characters in the book that to the
uninitiated the action described in the song cannot be followed. Once
you have read the book, however, the song captures the essence of the
book in three or four stanzas.  This song is on "Modern Times" (the
album also has some other superb songs on it if you are fond of Al
Stewart ("Year of the Cat", "Time Passages").  This album was also
engineered by Alan Parsons (he also did YotC and TP).

        - cheers -
        - geoff sherwood -
        _ u. of waterloo -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 83 16:30:23 EDT
From: "B.J." <Herbison@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: Re:  Movie of Dune - (nf) [SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #37]

    Sorry to confirm it, but DeLaurentis (the man with the monkey),
 is indeed producing Dune.

     I thought that the man with the monkey was in the White House.

B.J.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 15:14:54 PDT (Thursday)
From: Mackey.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Movie of "Dune"

     "The movie of Dune is being produced and directed by Dino de
      Laurentis (sp?)." David Grindal (...!utzoo!utcsrgv!grindal)

     I hope you are severly mistaken about the direction part. About a
year and a half ago David Lynch ("Eraserhead," "The Elephant Man") was
in Berkeley at the Pacific Film Archive for a showing of "Eraserhead."
After the first showing he answered questions, several of which were
about Dune. He didn't know much about the casting since they were
still working on a script. He said it would be a gargantuan task, and
would take several years. I like his films and hope he can make the
movie live up to our expectations. That's were I got my data. Where
did you get yours? I've only heard comfirmation through SF-LOVERS and
movie reviewer's columns on "things to come" that Lynch is directing.
Doesn't anyone read film magazines?

     It's possible to do a good job with Dune, the question is how
good. Of course "books can give the thoughts of the characters." But I
disagree that "films can not do so without being either contrived or
hokey." How is Dune different from other complex books which have been
put on the screen? "Dune: The Movie" will never have as much in it as
Dune the book. You won't expect much since you'd like to see the book
in all its detail in a movie. But I'd like there to be a movie to
introduce people to the book. Then they can go to the book to get the
deeper story. I'd also like to *see* Shai-Hulud in action, and not
just in my mind's eye, or from a book cover. The same goes for seeing
the planet and characters.

-Kevin

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 9:12:06-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!mhuxa!/a3/c5215a/weheh/user @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: DUNE Inquiry

     If D. Lynch is to direct DUNE I will be sure to see it.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 18:41:39-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!cca!ima!stevel @ Ucb-Vax

     Why is Dino De Laurentiis so bad? What has he done before that
evoked such emotional reactions????

Steve Ludlum  decvax!yale-co!ima!stevel, ucbvax!cbosgd!ima!stevel,

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 16:23:41-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!trwspp!urban @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re:  Movie of Dune

     According to a report in Locus, the "Dune" movie will Not star
Sting, but a young unknown.  While the movie will be produced by
damnXXX di Laurentis, the director will be David Lynch, who did
`Eraserhead' and `Elephant Man' (which means that `Dune' would be his
first color film).  There's some hope.  Stay tuned.

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 15-Jun-83 23:19:09 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: A few more words regarding "Wargames"

By the way, some misguided reviewers of "Wargames" have favorably
compared the film to such classics as "Failsafe" and "Dr.
Strangelove".  I vigorously oppose such comparisons.  Both of the
latter two films *did* use "gimmicks" for dramatic effect, that much
is true.  In "Failsafe", for example, a sensor failure combined with
another mechanical failure, radio jamming, and human error, causes the
"event".  In my opinion, however, "Failsafe" still presented a
"reasonable" scenario which did not insult the viewer's intellect.

"Dr. Strangelove" combined human error, insanity, and "The Doomsday
Machine".  This "machine" was indeed an unrealistic gimmick, but, and
here is the point, "Dr. Strangelove" was a satire, and *clearly* a
satire.  It had a strong message to present, but did not attempt to
convince viewers that the film's events were actually close to
reality.  Purity Of Essence!

"Wargames" cannot be compared favorably, in any way, with either
"Failsafe" or "Dr. Strangelove".  Attempting to force a favorable
comparison would be demeaning to both of the classic films.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: Wednesday, 15-Jun-83 23:18:21 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: "Wargames"

In my humble opinion, the film "Wargames" is a good example of the
sort of "pseudo-technical" crap that gives people unrealistically
negative views of computers and the people who work with them.

Without giving away too many plot details (if anybody really cares),
the basic "gimmick" in the movie is stolen directly from "Colossus:
The Forbin Project", with the addition of a generic computer "whiz
kid".  Anybody with slightly more than a passing familiarity with
computers and/or the manner in which the U.S. missile systems are
controlled should find the film to be totally ridiculous.  Basically,
the film throws together many concepts which might seem "plausible" to
the average person but which in reality are just plain unrealistic.

A few of these "concepts" include:

1) A Super-Computer controlling all missiles, which cannot be
   reasonably bypassed, and was programmed by one guy.  This person
   is no longer around, nobody else understands the software,
   but it's still being used anyway.  Maybe this is the case for
   some of our mail systems (?!?) but not for military systems!

2) Dialup lines into classified computer networks.  Non-crypto data
   communications in general classified use.  Simply untrue.

3) Door crypto-locks that look like Touch-Tone pads, and actually
   emit audible touch tones (which can be played back to open the
   door!)  Gimme a break!

4) Payphones whose microphones can be easily unscrewed and which
   can be easily "ground-started".  (Suuuuuure...  This isn't
   1966 you know!)

This by no means completes the list.  I won't even mention the typical
silliness of data rates much faster than possible with the modems in
use.  (Oooops!  I mentioned it!)  I will avoid qualifying the
incredibly inane ending of this film with any sort of mention at all,
other than to say that it is *indeed* stupid and totally ridiculous.

As you can see, what we have here are a bunch of concepts that may
"seem" plausible to many people.  Everybody has heard of high school
students breaking into computers -- so why not a classified computer
network that controls missiles?  The fact that no computers are in
"control" of missiles in that manner, and the fact that classified
systems of that sort do not have dialup lines and make heavy use of
encrypted communications, has been conveniently overlooked for the
sake of dramatic effect.  Likewise, people have "heard" that there are
(were) "simple" ways to defeat payphones, and everyone KNOWS that
pushbutton pads always emit tones, right?  So security keypads have to
work the same way, right?  Poppycock!

If films like "Wargames" didn't aspire to be carrying a deep and
meaningful "message", they might be enjoyable in much the same manner
as "Little Shop of Horrors".  But "Wargames" is so blatant in its
warping of technology for the sake of "impact" that it cannot be
excused.  Not only that, but interviews with some of the film's top
production staff have made it clear that they "feel" they were
presenting only a *slightly* exaggerated scenerio.  At least one wire
service writer went out interviewing NORAD officials to try find out
if "Wargames" was realistic.  When this writer confronted the
"Wargames" staff with the NORAD discussion of non-remote-access
facilities, encrypted communications, and the like, the "Wargames"
people simply responded with (something to the effect of): "We all
know that no computer is completely secure, so something like this
could happen"; a statement which is very misleading for the case in
question.

"Wargames" is a transparent attempt to "cash in" on pseudo-science
while promoting an anti-war message.  I have no gripes (in general)
with films which desire to present a meaningful message, nor do I
necessarily disagree with the concept that the current nuclear missile
"arrangement" between the superpowers is terribly dangerous and in
need of change.  However, in my opinion, it would have been possible
to create a film that managed to get such a message across (perhaps by
portraying some of the "real" dangers in the system, such as sensor
failure combined with human error) rather than create a totally
unrealistic situation (presumably because it held more "drama" and
would be more easily "understood" by the vast masses without any
significant explanation).

"Wargames" is essentially an exploitation film, which, to quote the
priest in "Harold and Maude", "... makes me want ... to vomit."

--Lauren--

P.S.  I've been fuming about this movie ever since a friend of mine
came back from a very early screening over at the MGM lot and provided
me with the first details.  Now that I've gotten these complaints off
my chest, I feel much better.  Thanks all!

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: 16 June 1983 23:10 EDT
From: Keith F. Lynch <KFL@mit-mc>
Subject: Wargames

     Date: 15 June 1983 11:00 EDT
     From: Arthur L. Chin <ARTHUR @ MIT-ML>

     P.S.  I also think that they should show
     this movie to a certain Congress:
     maybe even to a President!  Don't
     they watch movies anymore?

     According to the Washington Post, president Reagan DID watch
Wargames.  They quote him as having said something like "The only way
to win at Nuclear War is not to play the game".

                                ...Keith

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 83 3:10:47-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!cires!nbires!ut-ngp!jsq @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Wargames -- a micro-review  ( * * * *  out of five)

     I finally saw "War Games" tonight.  I'd say it deserves to appear
on a double feature with "StarCrash".  "Plan 9 from Outer Space" would
be too good for it.

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jun 83 1911-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #44
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Jun 1983     Volume 7 : Issue 44

Today's Topics:
                            Administrivia,
         Books - Stephen Donaldson and Gene Wolfe (2 msgs) &
                      James Hogan & John Varley,
     General Comments - SF Writers on the Space Shuttle (2 msgs),
    Television - SF and Public Television & "V" & Dr. Who (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 18:58:50 EDT
From: KIESCHE@RU-GREEN.ARPA
Subject: Administrivia

     We recently had some trouble here, with the system crashing
shortly after I had finished digesting a group of messages regarding
the recent release, "The Return of the Jedi".  As far as I can
determine, the entire digest was destroyed--and due to several dozen
things going on here, I haven't been to get anybody to tell me if we
can get those messages back.

     Therefore, I ask all readers to re-submit (if possible) their
recent messages regarding RETURN, if they don't go out over the next
five days (i.e., if you don't see it--assume that it was
destroyed...).  I apologize for the problems caused on the part of our
hardware...

     There will be no digests sent out over the next several days.
Rutgers is undergoing a massive re-structuring of the hardware-- we
are getting a new DEC-20, for example--so the system will be down
until all of the moving is done (assuming, of course, that other
problems don't crop up as a result of the move!).  As soon as things
return to some sense of being normal (an impossible thing, to be sure,
but we'll get close someday), we will again start publishing!

     Thank you (in advance) for your patience during our move.  I'll
let you know in advance regarding any other hiatus of SFL.

                      Frederick Paul Kiesche III

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 1983 2258-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <uc.rgh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: White Gold (SPOILER)

     I'm not sure if it was because I didn't reread the first two
before I read the third one, but I was thrashing when I tried to
understand "the great lie" that Covenant told Linden.  That turned out
to be that he had implied that they had a future together, although he
knew that he would die after he came out of the Land.  While I thought
his solution was a neat one, it was somewhat disconcerting the way he
(and especially Linden) all of a sudden came to feel that there could
be victory in death.  Such lofty ideas had been usually reserved for
the Giants and the Haruchai.

     So, what is Linden going to do now?  No doubt, the Land will soon
be in trouble again.  Now that they have a new (better) Staff of Law,
it will be a simple matter to summon her.  She has the White Gold now,
but when she shows up in the Land, will they give her the Staff of Law
to wield?  I can't imagine there being much of a contest if she has
her health-sight, the Ring, and the Staff.  I would be interested in
reading about the Chronicles of Linden Avery the Chosen, but I think
one book would cover it since she's so powerful.

                        --Randy

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 11:33:30-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!bvi @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: shadow of the torturer and thomas co - (nf)

     Hmmm... No, the only correlation between Donaldson and Wolfe that
I share is that they're both hard to get into.  However, whereas I
*forced* myself to finish the 1st Donaldson book, and had absolutely
*no* interest in reading any more in the sequence, I found I couldn't
put Shadow of the Torturer down once I got about 1/4 of the way into
it.  It does take a bit of getting used to, because Wolfe writes in a
deliberately obscure manner that forces you to use more imagination
than most other SF books.  I found that Severian and the whole culture
portrayed in the book fascinating; I finished SoT in one sitting and
ran out the next day to buy the other three books, which I finished
post haste.  I only wish there were more!

Beatriz Infante
..!ucbvax!hpda!bvi

------------------------------

Date: 21 June 1983 00:16 edt
From: Pattin at MIT-MULTICS (Jay Pattin)
Subject: James Hogan

     I just saw an ad for a new James Hogan novel in the July
Scientific American. The title is "Code of the Life Maker", and the
blurb says "...  takes you to a future world in which mankind meets
its match in an alien race of intelligent robots."

--- Jay

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 18:06:14 EDT
From: Ron <FISCHER@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Varley's Millenium

     ...was a good story, contrary to the sentiments of a previous
review.

     I read it in one sitting.  Found only one plot point that
bothered me, that the skinsuits turns out to *not* be real after it
seemed that its existance was confirmed (the shower scene).

     I think that the book succeeds because it deals with an area
Varley handles well, the gee whiz arena of strange people and their
uniquely motivated attitudes.

     If you liked Varley's Nine Worlds stuff, give Millenium a read.
I liked it.

(ron)

------------------------------

Date: 21 June 1983 00:28 EDT
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: [SASW: Let's ban SF writers from the Space Shuttle!]

     Let's also ban silly messages saying how the sender's favorite SF
author should get a ride on the Shuttle!  Putting an SF author on the
Shuttle is like preaching to the converted.  Let's put someone up
there who has clout and who can be inspired.

-- Steve

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 11:01:20 PDT (Tuesday)
From: Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Heinlein on the Shuttle.

     Actually, we don't have to worry about his health, at least to a
first approximation.  NASA did a bunch of centrifuge tests on ordinary
people of various ages, and found that the older you are, the better
you are able to withstand g's.  The theory is that harder arteries and
higher blood pressure keep the blood where it belongs.

     Does this mean that aspiring shuttle pilots should eat bacon and
eggs three times a day to "build up" their circulatory system?
Probably not, since withstanding g's (and only three of them at that)
is a very small part of the mission.  However, for aspiring shuttle
passengers who don't expect to do anything except get shuttled, maybe
so, maybe so...

Jef

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 83 14:51 PDT
From: Morrill.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Public TV, not as good as you think

     "I have just read another message in SF-LOVERS telling me how
wonderful public tv is . . . It must be nice to live in areas where
this is true!  But here in the intermountain west ( read Salt Lake
City ) it isn't.  We have a public tv station out here, KUED."

     Perhaps the reason is that public interest and funding just isn't
there.  So send KUED your donation and tell them what you want to see.

                        Toby

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 1983 0014-PDT
Subject: Re: accuracy of "V"
From: BILLW at SRI-KL

     "V" got the meteor right huh?  Sure there is a theory that says
the dinosaurs were wiped out by the aftereffects of a meteorite.  But
"V" says that the increased greenhouse effect made it too hot for the
poor reptiles, while the actual theory states that the increased dust
in the atmosphere made it too cold...  Now then; when was the last
time you saw a lizard out rolling around in the snow, huh?

     To me, this kind of almost right science in SF is especially
anoying.  I learned a lot of science from my early SF reading, and if
they are going to put "science" in the movie, they ought to do it
right, or at least not backwards.  I'd prefer the "Star Wars"
philosophy where science is completely excluded (no "Well Luke, the
wings on the shuttle open up to provide lift in the gravitational
field of the battle cruisers"...)

BillW

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 83 1:24:11-EDT (Sun)
From: harpo!seismo!hao!cires!nbires!ut-ngp!pyle @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Request for info -> NA Dr. Who Appreciation group

     Could someone supply the address (and other pertinent
information) for the North American Dr. Who Appreciation Society
(Network?)?

Thanks.

Keith Pyle
. . .!ucbvax!nbires!ut-ngp!pyle
. . .!decvax!eagle!ut-ngp!pyle

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jun 83 09:53 EDT
From: Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Doctor Who Episode Guide

     A few days ago, you mentioned the North American Doctor Who
Appreciation Society (NADWAS).  Could you (or someone else out there)
send me their address?

                        Thanks,
                                Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jun 83 1923-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #45
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Jun 1983     Volume 7 : Issue 45

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (6 msgs)
















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 1983 1819-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <EE.GDS%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #39

    Subject: More Yoda Questions

      "1) I couldn't think there was more than one year between ESB
and Rotj (in Star Wars time that is), so how does a 900 year old being
go from robust health (remember Luke's ship) to decrepit old age in
that time?  This brings up question:"

One wouldn't think that one year would make all that much difference,
but perhaps Yoda, seeing that Luke had reached his full maturity as a
Jedi, decided to relinquish his life of his own free will.  In
addition, by entering the spirit world, he could offer Luke the same
aid that Obi-wan offered him in ANH and TESB.

     "2) What about Yoda's race.  Surely he isn't the only short,
cute, green muppet in the galaxy.  Are all Yodas (for lack of a better
word) strong in the force?  Are they the source of all Jedi training?
Are there any left to help Luke rebuild the Jedi?"

Interesting question.  We have found the Force in two forms (good and
evil).  It appears that all forms of life have some (if not the same)
capabilities of using the Force (remember Jabba was undismayed by
Luke's Jedi mind trick -- I'd say he had a little of the dark side in
him).  If the Yoda race were similar in disposition to Yoda, it may
very well be that they were (or are) the source of all Jedi training
(perhaps the source of all Jedi? -- someone should look into the
genetic development of races in the Star Wars galaxy).  As a friend of
mine told me once, "the universe is a big place", and it's quite
likely that there are other Yodas running around with intent to aid
Luke in the rebuilding of the Jedi, plus other Sith Lords eagerly
awaiting to step into Vader and the Emperor's shoes and crush the Jedi
and the Alliance.

     "3) If Yoda was so strong in the force how come the Emperor never
felt his "disturbence of the force".  In either ANH or ESB (I think
ESB) the emperor refers to Luke in this way.  If he can detect Luke,
then Yoda should send his meters right off the scale. Or can people
very strong in the force "mask" themselves somehow?"

Another interesting question.  First of all, Yoda lived on Dagobah, an
out-of-the-way planet.  It's quite likely that he (hid?) himself there
to avoid detection by the Emperor.  After all, Vader didn't know about
Obi-wan until he boarded the Death Star in ANH, although he was still
alive.  (Not even when the Star Destroyer Vader arrived at Tatooine
did Vader detect Kenobi.)  It would seem that unless a Jedi achieves
some remarkable breakthrough in his training, or is physically close
to another Jedi, he cannot be detected.

Your hypothesis is also possible.  Obi-wan was able to "hide" in the
shadows of the Death Star in ANH without detection by the Imperial
troops, however Vader found him.  Perhaps Yoda is a lot stronger in
the force than the Emperor (ie., Yoda:Emperor as Kenobi:Imperial
troops (: = is to)) making Yoda undetectable by the Emperor.

     "4) Long Life.  In Rotj when Luke says to Yoda that he can't die,
Yoda replies, "Strong am I in the force, but not that strong".  Does
this mean that the force, properly controlled and in sufficient
strength, can prolong life or even give immortality?  What a
development that would be!"

Hmm...  The creature with the longest lifespan in the SW saga so far
is Yoda.  All the others seem to live normal human lifespans (barring
death in battle).  Nowhere in ANH, TESB or RotJ was the Force
described as a means for prolonging life.  It seems that if someone
was looking for longer life, he might succumb to the dark side to try
to achieve it, rather than dying in peace, as I believe Yoda did.
Most likely, Yoda was pointing out that the Force could not be used to
prolong lifespans.  At any rate, what do those guys need to live
forever for in their human forms, when they can hop all over the
universe in their spirit forms?

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 22:35:55-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!seismo!presby!burdvax!psuvax!starner @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Father

     In the novel Ben stated that Ben took Luke to Uncle Owen and Luke
and Leia's mother took Leia to Alderaan.  Unknown to Luke at the time
the people he called his Aunt and Uncle were actually Ben Kenobi's
brother and brothers wife.

     When Luke's father went off to fight in the Wars and became the
person we knew as Darth Vader, Ben took Vader's wife and the children
and hid them from Vader and the emperor so that Vader could not
destroy them.  This was well explained in the novel, but was only
hinted at in the movie, and you had to be paying very close attention
to pick it up.

     I recommend the novelization to all who saw the movie.  It is
well written and gives more complete description to many of the scenes
such as this one.

                        Hope this wasn't the last,
                        Mark Starner
                        Penn State University
                        {allegra,burdvax}!psuvax!starner

many of the k

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 11:41:59-PDT (Fri)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!zz1sm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ ***SPOILER*** & disappointed flame

     Saw RotJ last night and have to admit I was *extremely*
disappointed. Lots of good stuff, but too much silliness. This may
sound strange, but I felt it to be much less 'real' than the first
too. my credibility is willing to be stretched pretty far, but not
that far. I'll flame away for a while and then get to the stuff I
liked and a conclusion. Some examples...

     The creatures! Way too many FAKE-looking creatures. Especially in
Jabba's den. That blue smurfy thing really bothered me. Also the
'orc-like' creatues that greeted visitors to Jabba-- big soft things
with dull teeth and flab.  The guy with the tail growing out of his
head was good, though. I was also disappointed in Jabba, himself.
Looked like an overgrown hefty bag with fake eyes. Nice job on the
tongue, though. There were simply too many muppets and soft-looking
creatures, especially for a den of villainy.

     Princess Leia sure took being chained to Jabba, the epitomy of
slime, pretty well, casually sleeping against him when Luke walked in.

     Luke's New, Improved, Green Light Saber, and violence in general.
When I saw the ad in the paper for this movie, it had a small subtitle
that said something like 'May be too intense for young children'.
When? Was I the only one that noticed when our gang was escaping from
Jabba while suspended over the pit creature that Luke's light saber
didn't cut ANYONE? Just knocked 'em overboard to let the pit swallow
them. Is there a 'stun' setting on the handle? And when Leia strangled
the air bag, well, I just expected something a little more like
someone getting strangled, instead of just a couple of gasps and two
Tablespoons of green slime. I'm not into gore, or anything like that,
but this movie didn't even attempt the 'violent realism' of the first
two. The only blood (of any color) in the entire movie was the small
amount under Leia's bandage after she was shot with a blaster.

     Ewoks. Oh boy, now the rebel alliance has been saved by Teddy
Bears. Give me a break. Oh, sure, their cute as can be, but what the
hell are they doing fighting Imperial Stormtroopers? Ewoks are the
kind of creatures that make us want the rebels to win because they get
slaughtered or something; they are not the kind of creatures that beat
Stormtroopers. And with what weapons did they beat a squadron of the
Imperium's best? Sticks with little rocks on the end.

     The Rebel Alliance. We really rooted for these guys in SW and
TESB. Boy was the Imperium evil then-- blowing up whole planets and
stuff. Now it is the Rebels who are on the offensive. That's okay, but
I found that I didn't really hate the Imperial forces as much this
time. Sure, they did nasty things, but what was the Rebel's reaction
when the Death Star II blasted the rebellion's two largest cruise
ships out of existence? 'Oh no, the Death Star is operational!' No
mourning for the thousands who must have lost their lives
instantaneously? Why didn't Luke feel the souls crying out, as Obi-Wan
had when the planet was destroyed in SW. Sure, there were definately
more people on the planet, but Obi-Wan was in another part of the
galaxy, while Luke was within sight of this destruction. I guess I
just didn't feel for the rebellion as strongly as I used to, but I
don't think it is my fault as much as the director's.

     Now for the good stuff. My favorite scenes were all aboard the DS
II. I really thought this stuff was good, and I wish the rest of the
movie had been more like this. Luke's conflict with himself, Darth,
and the Emperor was very well done. Also the scenes of the rebels
flying through the innards of the DS II were fantastic. I liked most
of Luke's scenes; I really felt for him more than anyone else. I
thought that his conflict could have been a more major part of the
movie, and I wouldn't have minded if he had not survived it, as long
as he won his inner conflict first. I also really enjoyed the sky
cycle scenes. I wish I had one of them to truck around on. I think I'd
stay away from forests, though. I think that the acting in this movie
was the best of the three, at least on the parts of Luke, Leia, and
Han.

     Conclusion. It may sound from my flames above that I didn't like
RotJ. This is not true. I truly enjoyed it, but I was disappointed
because it left the spirit of episodes IV and V. It was simply TOO
CUTE to 'be believed'. I am afraid that I will not pay to see this
movie again, as I did SW (17 times) and TESB(12 times), at least not
in the near future. Oh, well. I hope that Episodes I-III and VII-IX
(if they are made) return to the spirit of adventure that was in SW
and TESB, but seems to be lacking in RotJ.

     Flame away!

Shane
sdcsvax!shane
sdcsvax!sdccsu3!zz1sm

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 21:24:48-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!wartik @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Leia's Adoption

     I assumed that Princess Leia's royal father-to-be understood the
situation of the empire, swallowed his pride, and cooperated with Yoda
and Obi-Wan in hiding her from the newly-corrupted Darth Vader.  What
troubles me is that it's Obi-Wan who, in "Empire", says Luke is the
last hope; I certainly got the impression from RotJ that he knew all
along about the plot.  Perhaps being a ghost causes lapses of memory.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Jun 83 12:44:37-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!zz1sm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: "BIGS was right!"

     Yes, there are different prints about. I remember going to the
Coronet in San Francisco to see SW (70mm, incredible sound system,
Dolby). There was a scene when Han and others are running through
hallways in the Death Star. As they approach a blastdoor, a
stormtrooper voice says, "Close the blast doors! Close the blast
doors!" Then, as Han, et.al. squeeze through the door laeving the
stormtroopers on the closed side, the voice yells,"Open the blast
doors! Open the blast doors!". When I saw the film again, at another
theater (and perhaps not in 70mm) the "Open the blast doors!" lines
were missing. I have seen it many times since then, but always in
70mm, and always without those lines...

Shane
sdcsvax!shane
sdcsvax!sdccsu3!zz1sm

------------------------------

Date: 18 Jun 83 23:46:31-PDT (Sat)
From: harpo!eagle!allegra!deb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: More Yoda Questions

     When Yoda says, "Strong am I in the Force, but not that strong",
I think he means that no-one can avoid death. Yoda is after all the
most powerful Jedi that we've seen. It also seems, the least powerful
force users do the most work. The ones with all the powe, (Yoda, then
Ben) just direct everybody else. Maybe the really, really powerful
Jedi's can't directly involve themselves.

        David Baraff
        allegra!deb

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 22 Jun 83 1928-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #46
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 22 Jun 1983     Volume 7 : Issue 46

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (8 msgs)























----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 May 83 1:12:45-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!watmath!bstempleton @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: TESB in Home Video this fall

     The rumour has it that TESB will show up in videotape this fall.
Once it does this, I plan to rent it and Part 4:ANH.  Then show them
both and have everybody trek down to whatever cinema is running ROTJ
at the time.

     Burnout!

Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 83 15:43:10-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!loux!raf @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Different Versions of Star Wars I

     The first release of the Star Wars movie did not say episode
anything, because at that time an entire series of movies was just a
pipe dream for Lucas. It wasn't until he proved he could make big
bucks with this concept (unlike his previous films) that it was
seriously considered.

        Ron Flannery - new to the net

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 83 0:07:18-PDT (Sun)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!mabgarstin @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: more on Biggs and other things

     I thought Biggs got burned in the Death Star fight scene in ANH
according to the book and that was why Luke decided to go and "...take
that sucker out."  (what movie was that quoted from?).

     Yes, I remeber the missing line of "Close the blast doors" in an
early release of ANH and I wish they had left it in, it helps
substanciate the intelligence level of your average run of the mill
storm trooper. Speaking about storm troopers being all human, I
understand they've just found a spot on the evolutionary scale for
them.

     A note about C-3PO saying in ANH that he was "...just an
interpreter and not very good at telling stories." and then taking all
of about a minute and a half to tell the entire story of ANH, TESB and
ROTJ thus far into the movie is a classic example I. Asimov's rules of
robotics. C-3PO being a protocol droid and probably involved in a lot
of diplomatic interpretation has to be (above all else) very very
humble.

     Finally, I've seen ANH in french about 3 times (I was fluent at
the time but a little rusty now) and some of the lines were slightly
different between that and english. In La Guerre des Etoile (LGDE)
when OB1 leaves Luke, Han et al in the guard room in search of the
tracter beam control and DV he stops and says to Luke "La force est
avec tu" (The force IS with you) whereas in english he says "The force
WILL BE with you" (La force sera avec tu).

                          le MAB
                          dans le LAB

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 83 10:34:00-PDT (Sun)
From: harpo!floyd!trb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: More Yoda Questions

     It's called "Return of the Jedi," right?  To whom is "Jedi"
referring?

     In the force if Yoda's so strong, construct a sentence with words
in the proper order then why can't he?

        Andy Tannenbaum   Bell Labs  Whippany, NJ   (201) 386-6491

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 83 3:22:54-PDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!john @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: New theory for speeders - (nf)

     Any society that could build droids like R2-D2 and C3-PO would be
able to come up with something a little more elaborate than a steering
wheel for their vehicles. Those craft probably had enough sensors and
intelligence to avoid running into things and all the rider had to do
was pick a general path to follow. The effect would be more like
riding a horse than a motorcyle.  Crashing would only happen if you
forced one into a path where there were no solutions that the vechicle
could find.

     You have to admit, If an EWOK can fly one then they must not be
to hard to operate. I am curious as to how that one ewok left the
cycle by grabbing onto the vine and swinging up. Has anyone figured
out how high he would of had to swing to convert all that foward
kinetic energy into potential energy? Once he came back down then he
should have been moving backwards at nearly the same speed as when he
left the cycle.

John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 08:43 CDT (Monday)
From: HOWARD.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #38

     It is my guess that Leia, like Luke was adopted as an infant.
Her adopted parents were probably unable to have a child themselves,
although they probably wished they could.  Therefore they secretly
adopted Leia so that they could have an heir.  Since they would
probably not want anyone to know of their bedroom problem, they would
give Leia the same rights and responsibilities as a natural heir.  In
fact they might have even went so far as to stage a fake pregnancy and
birth to futher legitimize Leia.

                DOUG

------------------------------

Date: Mon 20 Jun 83 07:37:09-MDT
From: Michi Wada <WADA@SANDIA.ARPA>
Subject: Jedi Afterlife

Date: Tue 14 Jun 83 17:04:27-PDT
From: Robert Amsler <AMSLER@SRI-AI.ARPA>
Subject: Jedi Afterlife
.........
     I'm surprised nobody has commented on my hypothesis that these
persona of dead Jedi are not in fact separate entities, but either
wholly living WITHIN Luke Skywalker or only able to manifest
themselves by using Luke as a link into this world.
     Nobody but Luke sees them. Nobody but Luke hears them. ...

     Luke was not the only one to see Obi-Wan after his death.  Yoda
spoke to Obi-Wan in ESB.  The scene occurs as Luke is leaving the
planet and Obi-Wan says something about there goes our last hope.
Yoda says no, there is another.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 1983 1205-PDT
Subject: RotJ Nitpicking
From: WMartin at Office-3 (Will Martin)

     Did anyone else notice (or could it have been due to the
particular print/projector) very jerky movement of the figures walking
about on the deck of Jabba's sand cruiser in the first scene of the
craft skimming over the surface of Tatooine?  There was a bipedal
figure walking on the deck, and the movement was really obviously
jerky.

     I could swear I saw a misspelling in one of the subtitles in
Jabba's chamber.  Did anyone else notice "wookee" spelled "wookeie"?
[OK, I just realized I really don't know if it is "wookee" or
"wookie"; however, the subtitle was neither of these -- there was an
extra letter in there somewhere.]

     Why did C3PO not speak to Jabba in "Jabbaese"?  There was too
much English and not enough foreign tongues with subtitle; also the
foreign tongue sounded an awful lot like a "pig-Latin"-type version of
English, especially that spoken by the right-pseudopod-being (I can't
call him a "right-hand-man, can I?) while Luke was mind-controlling
him.  (C3PO should have been more effective and sure of himself when
translating and speaking the various alien tongues; after all, that is
his primary purpose and he should be confident and professional about
it.)

     Re the Death Star: if this thing was under construction, why
didn't we see any sign of that, aside from the partially-completed
appearance?  I expected the sort of surrounding craft that were seen
in the construction/overhaul hanger scene in Star Trek - TWOK.  At
least, there should have been a hazy cloud of specks around it in some
of the scenes at the beginning, representing construction craft.  You
see lots of fighters during hanger-approach shots, but I didn't notice
anything that could be engineering machinery.  Somehow, I can't see
this thing all being built from the inside out...

     How did Lando get to be a trusted henchman of the evil Jabba?  As
far as I could see, he just appeared there, already installed.  A line
or two of explanation wouldn't have been all that difficult, and would
have helped.  After all, he could have unfrozen Han himself earlier
and avoided all that fuss.

     Jabba is in this for the money; he would have sold Han if the
price was right.  Afer all, that's why he wanted him in the first
place.  Sure, torture, rape(?), and pillage are fun, but money is what
counts....

     Speaking of torture, how do red-hot irons on a droid's feet do
anything but damage expensive hardware?  If you want to torture a
droid, merely sending the right electrical impulses into its brain by
connecting a few wires can do it a lot more effectively and
efficiently than any mechanical devices or working on external sensor
circuits.  Nonetheless, that brief scene in Jabba's equipment room was
one of the best shots in the movie.

     Strategy and tactics: (Good grief!)  Oh, well, maybe just a few
points...

     Why steal the Imperial shuttle, get the password to approach the
Death Star, and then just use it to land somewhere out in the woods on
Endor?  They could have sneaked in on any rebel ship, if they weren't
going to go into the Death Star or onto the base landing pad.  Why go
through the security screen in the first place?

     What is the purpose of big ships?  Since any little X-wing can go
into hyperspace, and the big ships don't seem to be able to defend
themselves with anything but fighters, and they don't seem to DO
anything, why have them?  (Either Imperial or rebel; neither side's
big ships did anything but stand around, except the one that skrunched
into the Death Star.)  Anything larger than the Falcon seems to be
mainly for the purpose of "gliding majestically", rather than any
effective activity.

     Lastly: What kind of name is "Anakin", anyway?  "Luke" is pretty
obvious ("Lucas" > "Luke"), and I recall lots of speculation years ago
on "Obi-Wan" in SFL, but "Anakin"?  "Yoda" is pretty obviously derived
from the Eastern psychic master business of "yoga" or a "yogi", but
what are the Jedi/psychic connotations of "Anakin"?

Will Martin

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 83 0149-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #47
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 47

Today's Topics:
 Books - Niven and Pournelle & Piers Anthony & Alexis A. Gilliland &
   Robert A. Heinlein and Arthur C. Clarke and George Lucas and the
            Space Shuttle and Stephen Donaldson (5 msgs),
                          Television - "V",
                      Film - "Wargames" (2 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 10:44:34-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!joe @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Aliens

     I finally got around to reading "The Mote in God's Eye".  While I
enjoyed the book a great deal, after I finished it I was struck by
something.  The protrayal of the Moties by Niven & Pournelle fails
(for me, at least) in one important respect: they are too human.  This
started me thinking about other portrayals of aliens in sf, and the
extent to which the author actually forces on the reader the
realization that the creatures being described are completely foreign
to our way of thinking.

     Does anyone have any nominations for especially alien aliens?
I'd be interested in what others think about this.

joe

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 1:45:40-PDT (Wed)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!chris @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Alien Aliens

     I vote for Piers Anthony's "CLUSTER" series as having the most
alien aliens.

UUCP:   {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet:  chris@umcp-cs
ARPA:   chris.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1983  12:54 EDT
From: Mike Blackwell <Blackwell@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: The Revolution From Rosinante

                   "The Revolution From Rosinante"

              by Alexis A. Gilliland, Del Ray, pb, 1981

     I found this to be one of the best new sf books that I have read
in a while.  It combines all the right elements: human drama,
intrigue, murder, sex, good guys and bad guys, etc, and blends them
all very well with good hard science. Basically, the book is about a
space colony ("mundito") which is struggling to break free of it's
political and financial bonds on Earth. But it is also a very well
done and consistent near-future history of the planet Earth and nearby
space. Lots of little details (like intelligent robots that
incorperate themselves to gain their equivelent of "human rights")
make this very enjoyable reading. I highly recommend this book.

                -m-

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 22:37:25 EDT
From: JoSH <JoSH@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: Moon is a Harsh Mistress

From: SSteinberg.SoftArts at MIT-MULTICS:

     "Was "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" really libertarian fiction
just because a bunch of characters spouted the libertarian party
line?"

     "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" predates the Libertarian Party by
ten years or so.  I would say that if any spouting is being done, the
libertarians are spouting Heinlein's lines.  "tMiaHM" is considered
libertarian by everyone I know who considers themselves libertarian.
It is listed among the contents of the Aurora library in "Alongside
Night", beside books by Rand, von Mises, and Rothbard.  Indeed,
Heinlein's writings can be taken on the whole as a good definition of
"mainstream" libertarian thought.

     "...  Remember, they were all living in communes on the moon.
Loners (male or female) didn't do too well until they learned how to
accomodate to the society."

     "Libertarian" doesn't mean "anybody can do what he pleases".
Heinlein is a strong believer in knowing what you have to do to get
along with the universe, which includes society.  At the basis of
libertarian thought is the concept that the individual, not the state,
is the basis of morality.  This is strongly expressed in the book.

     "It has been seven or eight years since I read the book but if I
remember correctly the plot revolved around a colonial rebellion in
which the moon colony was being economically exploited by an out of
touch Earth government."

     Indeed.  It is one of at least four Heinleins dealing with
revolution-- there are also "Red Planet", "Between Planets", and
"Revolt in 2100"--but the situation of a government economically
exploiting a colony, or anyone else, is a common real-world occurance,
and not the exclusive property of any one ideology.

     Speaking of books on revolution, I would like to second
decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!watmath!watcgl!gcsherwood@Ucb-Vax's
recommendation of "A Planet in Arms" by Daniel Barr.  I anxiously
haunted the bookshops for other books by Barr for some time after I
"discovered" it, with unfortunate lack of success.  Let me also
mention in this context Alexis Gilliland's "Rosinante" books, which
are of comparable quality.

     "The whole book [tMiaHM] is actually rather Marxist in tone."

     Baloney.  The revolution, the basic reasons for it, the
government formed therefrom, and Heinlein's sympathies, are all
obviously based on the United States Revolutionary War.  They even
issue a Declaration of Independence on July 4, 2076.

     "After all, the bad guys put up the money to develop a moon
colony, and arranged to populate the area.  The Marxists usually point
out that the colonialists exploit the native population which has an
intrinsic ownership of land and their own ouput."

     The moon was a PRISON colony in the book.  You will find that
places like it abound in Siberia.

--JoSH

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 10:28:14-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!watcgl!gcsherwood @Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein on the Space Shuttle

     I frankly doubt the idea has much chance (a snowball's chance...)
but what the hell.  I do disagree with the Clarke vs Heinlein
observation.  Agreed, "Fountains of Paradise" is better than
Heinlein's recent stuff.  However, Heinlein at his best (such as "Moon
is a Harsh Mistress") is superior to anything penned (or typed,
whatever) by Clarke.  I like Clarke's stuff too, but Heinlein (at his
best) is far better.

        - geoff sherwood -
        - U. of Waterloo -

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 10:15:20-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!watarts!bernie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein on the Space Shuttle

     The current shuttle crew is five, but it can get by with as few
as two; why not send *all three* people under consideration so far:
Heinlein, Clarke *and* Lucas?  It wouldn't be all that expensive; in
fact, they could even be a part of an already-scheduled mission in
which no payload specialists are required (surely they won't be
needing payload specialists for all missions).

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 16:33:19-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!seismo!rlgvax!tom @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein on the Space Shuttle

     WHAT!  Put Lucas in the same category (much less the same
shuttle) as Heinlein and Clarke!  No way!

     The "Star Wars" saga may be entertaining, exciting, and cute, but
they are no justification for honoring the man in such a way.  I
thought the original proposals for Heinlein and Clarke were based on
their attempts at serious scientific fiction and their abilities to
postulate reasonable scientific achievments of the future and their
consequences.  I thoroughly enjoyed "Star Wars", but Ewoks,
ineffective blasters (and armor), crash-happy vehicles, magical
Forces, some nice asteroid shots, and good-guys versus bad-guys plots
just don't make the grade.

     If we must round out a trilogy, I say we exhume the body of Jules
Verne, and give him the ride.  Perhaps a burial in space ...

- Tom Beres
{seismo, allegra, mcnc}!rlgvax!tom

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 1983 2006-EDT
From: Larry Seiler <Seiler@MIT-XX>
Subject: Thomas Covenant;  Heinlein

     Replies to two messages in issue 40:

     It is a mystery to me why anyone likes the Thomas Covenant books.
On the other hand, I have a friend whose tastes in SF are in many ways
similar to mine, and it is a mystery to him why I DON'T like the TC
books.  I explained that I felt zero sympathy for TC himself (and for
his refusal to believe in the Land) and my friend more-or-less agreed
with that, but replied that I ought to be interested in the Land.
Looking at it rationally, I think I should have gotten interested in
the Land, but I didn't, and that's that.  So cheer up, Laura, there
are others who can't take Thomas Covenant.  No criticism inplied of
those who do like it - some of my best friends do!

     Now, about Heinlein's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress"...I don't think
Heinlein was making a political statement in that book, but it is
certainly possible to draw various political statements out of it.
You could argue that libertarianism is the best form of "government" -
after all, the most admirable characters in the book felt that way.
Or you could argue that libertarianism cannot work in any ordinary
society, since it only worked on the moon during a period of anarchy
enforced by an outside power ("We don't have any laws - we've never
been allowed to"), and disappeared as soon as the outside power that
enforced it was eliminated (figurtively speaking).  Anyway, I wouldn't
call it a libertarian book.

Larry Seiler

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 9:59:44-PDT (Mon)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!tad @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Accuracy of "V"

     In regard to the apparent accuracy, or inaccuracy, I thought that
the Visitors stated that they could not stand the light, thus the need
for the glasses, yet later we see that they have vertical slitted
pupils and come from Sirius, one of the brightest stars known. Either
somebody goofed, or my eyes just aren't what they used to be.

                        Terry Dexter at aplvax

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1983  00:12 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #43

Re: Lauren's comments about War games:

     I agree TOTALLY... and would like to get something off my chest
that moves me to utter disgust:

     To all the Pseudo-Technological-Movie-Makers around the world:
(they'll never see this...)

     PPPPLLLLEEEEEAAAASSSSEEEE!!!!!!!!

     Please, please, please, please: (my face is now red)

     STOP HAVING MACHINES BLOW UP BECAUSE "It Doesn't Compute."!!!!

     IT'S ABSURD, IMPOSSIBLE, NONSENSICAL, AND DAMN IT SIMPLY DOESN'T
HAPPEN!

Thank you.

Dave Goodine

(You think you felt better, Lauren...)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 1983 2057-EDT
From: Greg Skinner <Uc.Gds at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: War Games (Spoiler!!)

%%      SPOILER  SPOILER  SPOILER  SPOILER      %%

     I would like to start some discussion about "War Games", first
expressing my delight in seeing the movie -- it was action packed,
exciting, filled with believable characters and just a joy to watch!
However, there are a few (minor) details about the movie that seemed a
bit beyond belief to me.  I would like others' response to these.

     1) (what was the kid's name's) ability to call the computer.  I
don't know exactly how the DoD provides access to its most internal
computers, but I would imagine that they do not have dialups for them.
(I would hope not ... imagine if someone actually DID start WWIII by
cracking an internal defense computer?)

     2) The idea of a "back door".  Again, for security reasons, I
would imagine that access would be severely restricted and there would
be no access for a random user by supplying a random name.  Also, I
was a little surprised that the users did not have to supply
passwords, just usernames.

     Comments would be greatly appreciated.

--Greg  (gds@mit-xx.arpa, uc.gds%mit-eecs@mit-mc.arpa)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 83 0213-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #48
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 48

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (9 msgs)



















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 19:10:42 EDT  (Mon)
From: Speaker-To-Animals <bane.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: Different Versions of Star Wars I

     The 'Episode IV' was edited in after the release of 'Empire' when
Lucas was sure that he had a series.

                        - Speaker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Jun 83 1:15:00 EDT
From: Mike Muuss <mike@brl-vgr>
Subject: Re:  Different Versions of Star Wars I

     The 1st SW movie was always Episode IV, but the first release did
NOT have that in the opening titles.  Got added in later.

     I'm also of the opinion that the wording of the opening titles
was changed slightly, although it may just be my bits babbling...

                -Mike

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 10:21:12-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: More Yoda Questions

     I figure "Return of the Jedi" does not refer to a single Jedi
knight, but more like, "return of the Jedi race" or "return of the
Jedi order" -- return of Jedi types in general to prominence in local
politics.

                                -Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 19:03:33-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!peterr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: RotJ gross

     Lucasfilm has announced that RotJ has grossed $101.6M in 23 days.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 17:59:49-PDT (Mon)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!ray @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Adoption (somewhat minor spoiler)

     Actually, the most idiotic part of the movie was when Luke asks
Yoda: "You spoke of another" (This quote may not be exact but everyone
knows the scene).  Well, when Yoda mentioned the "other" in TESB Luke
was taking off in his X-wing.  I don't think that i can believe that
Luke actually heard Yoda say that ( nor do i believe that he was meant
to).  SO???? How did Luke find out about it??  HUH?  EH??  (Oops my
keyboard just caught on fire.)  Any comments, suggestions, flames,
etc?  Perhaps Luke could just *sense* Yoda's words.  (oh boy, those
jedi have good powers)

                        Picky, picky
                        Ray Allen
                        utcsrgv!ray
                        (416) 978-5036

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 21:49:05 EDT
From: Dir LCSR Comp Facility <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: what Jedi is Returning

     Most people I talked to assumed that it is Anakin Skywalker who
was the Jedi that returned.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 7:26:54-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!rabbit!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Adoption (somewhat minor spoiler)

     Luke never said that to Yoda.  The last thing Yoda said (what
some people have said was unintellible) was: There is another
Skywalker.  Then he faded away.  Luke asked BEN who the other was.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 1983 19:24:26 EDT (Wednesday)
From: Jon McCombie <jmccombi@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: RotJ

     A few days before RotJ opened, I saw an interview on TV with the
actor who played Luke, talking about the movie.  When asked if he was
contracted to appear in any of the remaining movies, he responded that
he "couldn't": he *might* appear in the last of the series, "but only
in some sort of alternate form -- you'll understand what I mean when
you see the movie".

     I took this to mean that he would die and come back as a hologram
like all good (?) Jedi knights, but obviously that didn't happen.  Did
anyone else see this interview (I believe it was on "Evening
Magazine", or something of that ilk)?  Does anyone have any ideas
what's going on here?  Is the book any clearer?  Yet another last
minute pre-release edit, perhaps?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 6:26:04-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!floyd!cmcl2!philabs!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!iz579 @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: The Other ???  (spoiler and random ramblings)

     Some random thoughts after reading all of net.movies.sw before
seeing RotJ for the third time.

     The Other : I am still not convinced that Princess Leia is the
Other that Yoda referred to in TESB.  Consider this dialog from TESB--

        OB1:  He (Luke) is our only hope.
        Yoda: No, there is another...

     Why doesn't OB1's hologram know that Leia is the other hope,
after all he arranged for the separation and concealment of the twins
in the first place.  Perhaps he does not feel that Leia is strong
enough with the force to do any good against the Empire.  You would
think that he would have at least had her trained by Yoda alongside
her brother in case Luke failed in his attempt.  I submit that the
Other hasn't even been born yet.  Why? Because of some rumor I read in
a magazine a couple years ago which said that the Other was Leia and
Han Solo's son, and that the third trilogy was about his exploits.
With Darth and the Emperor dead, I can't see what bad guys he'll have
to fight, but I'm sure George will think of someone in 9-11 years!

     Sexism in Lucasland: Ever notice that there are very few women in
episodes 4-6 ?  Princess Leia and a couple of other women (none with
names) like the Rebel woman who spoke at the Endor/Deathstar II
briefing. Of course, the Rebels are a military operation, and women
may not be suitable for space battles. (Princess Leia does just fine
though.)  Even so, what does a Rebel pilot do for his shore leave?
Lucas's galaxy seems to have a general shortage of women.

     On lightsabers not hitting the ground: I listened carefully, and
I heard a distinct clatter when Luke throws his lightsaber at the
Emperor's feet.  Perhaps the soundsystem was out of adjustment in the
theater--6 channel Dolby is pretty sensitive to improper adjustment. I
remember seeing "The Wrath of Khan" with 2 channels missing because of
bad levels (I talked with the projectionist afterward.)

     On weapons technology: Blasters are pretty ineffective weapons,
at least when they are used on the good guys.  In RotJ Chewbacca,
Luke, Leia, and R2D2 all get hit by blaster fire, and sustain only
minor damage.  What also amazes me is the blasters' terrible accuracy.
If you can make things like droids and antigrav devices, surely you
can make some homing mechanism or scope for those blasters.  I think
Lucas should have used personal shields (ala Dune) to make things a
bit more believable.

     I won't even comment on creature design and Ewoks, enough has
been said all ready.

     Like others, I still enjoyed the movie

        Paul "The Software Generator" Van de Graaf
        U. C. San Diego

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 83 0217-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #49
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 49

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (7 msgs)




















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 17:29:41-PDT (Tue)
From: harpo!eagle!alice!wookie @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Close the blast doors!

     For those who have not seen Star Wars fifty times in the various
formats look for a few changes if you can still get the early
versions.  The picture was rushed into release by 20th since they felt
they wouldn't make their money back if the picture wasn't brought out
in the Spring. The first 70mm main release to all the theatres had
many problems.  The sound effects in many cases were not synced
properly.  For example when Luke uses his electronic binoculors and
zooms in on the sand-people you here the zoom sound start and end a
little after the visual effect.  This was corrected in the later
versions.  You will also note that all of Aunt Beru's lines were
redubbed in the later versions.  The wording is the same but the
intonations are different.  Later when R2D2 is bringing up schematics
pertaining to the whereabouts of the tractor beam generator for
Obi-Wan in the first version the charts simply appear while in the
later versions C3P0 has a line added where he explains the location to
Obi-Wan.  Another big difference is in the fighter scenes at the end
of the movie.  In the original version inter-fighter communication is
made to sound like single sideband radio communication with its Donald
Duck quality but later it was changed to a more normal radio sound.  I
liked the SSB much better.

     As far as the close the blast doors line goes; it appeared alone
in the original version and so was not funny so they added the other
line (which I assume should have been there in the first place but was
forgotten) "Open the blast doors, open the blast doors!!"

     There were quite a few other changes which I can't recall right
now so maybe if someone else can think of them we can compile them all
for some strange purpose!

                        Keith Bauer
                        White Tiger Racing

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 1983 2005-MDT
From: William Galway <Galway@UTAH-20>
Subject: ROTJ--request for trivia information

     Here's a request for folks who'll be watching the show with an
eagle eye.

     Several scenes in the movie show the Emperor sitting in front of
a round viewport (window) with a starscape moving behind it.  Two
things about this bothered me.  First, everytime the show cuts back to
the Emperor it seems to be the same starscape behind him.  (You'd
expect more variety with 360 degrees of background to chose from.)
Second, it seemed to me that when stars moved behind something and
disappeared they took too long to reappear on the other side of the
occluding object.

     Anyone care to confirm or deny these impressions?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1983  23:48 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #42

     Re: Joe Frisbie's message

     Yoda had to be a Jedi of he couldn't have lifted Luke's fighter
out of the swamp, couldn't have (through dying) travel to a higher
plane of existence ("rest for eternity"), and he said so himself(he
was the last before Luke, Leia and Vader).

     Re: Sue Felshin's comment about appearing as holograms all over
the place not being "rest" cf. Most Terran Religions' ideas of Heaven.
(Dear Sue: I have a feeling that Yoda's death "was all your
fault".(sorry just couldn't resist.)

Dave Goodine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1983  00:00 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #42

     Re: Speeders

     It seems to me that the speeders had two throttles, and two
exhaust(propulsion) ports, therefore providing all the necessary
manaeuvering capabilities.  I suggest that the anti-gravity force used
to keep the bikes above ground (even when the motors weren't running,
which surprised me) would allow the speeder to tilt in a similar
fashion as being on a motorcycle, although the "surface" of the field
would have to greater to allow the 90 degree tilt we saw luke pull
off.

     By the way, I almost died when I saw the rope that suspended on
of the models right after it hit a tree(I think it was the "you seem
to have lost part of your speeder buddy" scene.

Dave Goodine

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 20:58:17-PST (Wed)
From: 750a Ops <ops.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Strategy and Tactics in the Star Wars Universe

     In response to Hester's "space battle" nits: The weakness of the
Death Star in SW-IV is more than marginally believable.  Check out the
sinking of the HMS Hood by the Bismarck in 1940.  Two salvos, she
broke her back and the mighty Hood was history.  How about the
incredible luck of the USN at the Battle of Midway?  Now since Obi-wan
tells us that there is no such thing as luck and since the Death Star
I was vaporized (leaving very little for Imperial tacticians to
analyze) and since (as mrose points out) the Emperor was trying to
convince the Alliance that the Death Star II was vunerable, it is
really no surprise that a few brave and determined organics and droids
were able to defeat the Death Star.

     As for the Imperial Star Fleet, some surely got vaporized along
with the Death Star, but some must have survived, particularly the big
ships (are they called super star destroyers?).  So what happened to
them?  Well let us suppose that there are basically two kinds of
commanders in the Empire, those who are good at their job and those
who kiss up to the Emperor.  After the Death Star is destroyed the
latter are worse than useless as they either run away or are destroyed
as they stand in stunned silence at the death of the the big E.  This
leaves us only the guys who know what they're doing, but how many? A
respectable portion of these will cut out also. Why? Because the
Emperor is dead and the riches of the Empire are up for grabs AND when
these guys start going we have a nice little domino effect among the
smaller fish.  Our boys should be able to take care of the rest.
(Obi-wan could be wrong about luck).

/tlj

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 1983 10:49:39-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Levitating Death Stars

     L5 is obviously too far away given the scale shown (even if the
scene in the briefing room is wrong, the Death Star should be within a
very few diameters).  But the neutral-but-unstable position \\behind//
the moon might work. . . .

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 21:21:04 PST (Wed)
From: Stephen Willson <willson.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Jedi is garbage

     For some reason, this discussion has switched over to sf-lovers
and out of movies.  For those of you who read movies, but not
sf-lovers, you missed some interesting stuff from Jim Hester about
Jedi.

     Anyhow, I agree with Hester's ideas.  His plot improvements and
complaints are quite good.  Also, Marshall's observation that the
emporer was so intent on frying Luke that he didn't respond to Vader's
attack quickly enough makes sense to me.

     I liked the Star Cruiser smashing into the Death Star II too.
(Question: will there be a Death Star //e?)  But I thought the process
photography for that particular shot was a bit cruddy.

     But let's face it.  This movie was made only for the effects.
George has lost it.  My friend Paul, who is a student at USCinema,
quoted one of his teachers to me once.  This teacher said, "Old
directors don't die, they become cinematographers."  What that means,
is, when old directors lose their story-telling ability, they start
concentrating on the imagery.  George has clearly lost his
story-telling ability.

     We'll have to see about Spielburg...  (He's my other hope.)

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 83 2024-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #50
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 50

Today's Topics:
               General Query - WESTERCON Room Sharing,
       Books - David Brin & Gene Wolfe and Stephen Donaldson &
                     Robert A. Heinlein (2 msgs),
              Discussion - Interesting Aliens (3 msgs),
            Film - Dr. Strangelove and War Games (5 msgs),
            Discussion - SF Writers on the Space Shuttle,
          Review - A Possibly Offensive Review (For Some...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1983 10:57:20-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Westercon

     With the coming shutdown this may arrive too late (i.e., after 30
June, in which case the moderator is invited to delete it): I have a
room at Westercon and am looking to split it. Is there anyone
considering going who isn't committed already?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 83 20:05:36-PDT (Sun)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.dub @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: What about D. Brin?

     Speaking of somewhat obscure authors, does anyone know if David
Brin is coming out with any works in the near future or anytime for
that matter?  His "Sundiver" was so refreshing to read that I've
looked all over for more from him.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 14:14:58-PDT (Tue)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!packet!cfv @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: shadow of the torturer and thomas co - (nf)

     I seem to have had a similar response to SotT.  It took me about
3 months to finish the book, but the first quarter of the book took
all but 4 days of it.  It was not that I didn't like the book, but it
is an involved and thought provoking book and you have to be in the
proper frame of mind.  If you don't feel like involving yourself in
the book, it just doesn't work.  I have a similar response to movies:
some days I feel like Fellini, some days I feel like the Marx
Brothers.

     One thing that I noticed (someone out there want to back me up on
this?)  when reading it was that the feel of the New Sun books was
very close to the works of Kafka.  As it turned out, I was reading
some of Kafka's short works about the time I read SotT, so it might
just be a reaction to that, but it almost felt like he was using a
work like The Castle as a philosphical base.  There is also a lot of
classical literature entertwined into the fabric of the story,
especially the Greek and Roman mythologies.

     I haven't read the Covenant yet. Maybe I should... Is it really a
good work?

>From the dungeons of the Warlock:

Chuck Von Rospach
ucbvax!amd70!packet!cfv
(chuqui@mit-mc)  <- obsolete!

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 83 9:35:21-PDT (Tue)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!watcgl!gcsherwood @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein

     This is in response to the article which (based on the writer's
memory) had the Moon is a Harsh Mistress's crew acting in a Marxist
fashion because they threw off the rule of their absentee landlords on
earth (I think that pretty well summarizes the article).  Oy Veh!  A
similar situation happened in 1776 in a certain well-known country.
Whether a colony ever has the right to throw off the rule of those who
originally paid for it is a very complex question (and not one to be
brushed off with a 'Marxist' label).  Perhaps there is no "right"
answer, but history shows it happening time and again.  Perhaps the
Moon crew had more justification than most because most of the people
shipped to the moon were political prisoners, excess population (from
China), and so on, who could not return (1G must be murder after years
of 1/6 G) and who received no benefit from being shipped there (except
remaining alive).

     Even more importantly, Mike (the computer) gave a prediction that
at present rates of consumption (and shipment of grain) the moon would
be exhausted of obtainable resources (like water) within 7 years, with
canabalism in two more.  A prediction like that gives a certain amount
of justification to ANY possible solution, historical basis for
separation from a mother country (world?) aside.

     Basic conclusion: If you are going to blast a book, read it.

        - geoff sherwood -
        - U. of Waterloo -

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 12:47:55-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!security!wdr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Heinlein Economics: MisHM

     The colony in "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" was not a Capitalist
private investment but a Penal Colony established with tax dollars.
Compare it to Georgia or Australia, not Jamestown or New York.  The
Lunies were either Convicts or their offspring.  The Military Govenor
of the Colony was called the WARDEN, and lived in his own Bubble city,
isolated with all beaurocratic offices from the Rabble--the Prison
Population.

Bill Ricker
(617)271-3725 MS k203, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA, 01730
wdr@security.UUCP                           (Internet)
{allegra,genrad,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!security!wdr
(UUCP)
wdr@mitre-bedford                           (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 8:27:18-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!yale-com!leichter @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Aliens

     For really ALIEN aliens, try C.J. Cherryh's "Serpent's Reach".
(The aliens are sort of huge ants; each individual is fairly stupid,
the "hive" is very intelligent and essentially immortal - and with a
VERY long memory.)

     A good book.

                -- Jerry
                decvax!yale-comix!leichter leichter@yale

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 9:11:36-PDT (Wed)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!dsd!avsdS!avsdT.deborah @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Aliens

     My idea of really alien aliens is the trisexual beings in the
middle portion of 'The Gods Themselves' by Isaac Asimov. In fact, in
his auto- biography, Asimov says he tried hard to make them very
non-human.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 13:00:48-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!security!wdr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Alien Aliens

     In responce to the article asking for good aliens:

     An acquantance of mine, Bob Butler, wrote in the current issue of
The Wild Hunt [the FRP Gaming magazine published by Mark Swanson (Hi
Mark!)] about alien mind-sets.  He described an encounter he had had
with a being which thought and argued in entirely different patterns
than he did, and thus they could not communicate.

     The entity in question was a philosophy professor who treated all
discourse as syllogism and would attack any discourse not in the form
of a valid syllogism as UNTRUE.  He graded students not on how well
the chose positions or how convincing they could be but on how well
they could argue a position using oral formal login.

     Bob, being interested in xenosociology, views this episode as a
model Alien Encounter, and apparently uses it to build alien mindsets
for fantastic and SF-ish entities in his role playing games.

Bill Ricker
(617)271-3725 MS k203, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA, 01730
wdr@security.UUCP           (Internet)
{allegra,genrad,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!security!wdr
(UUCP)
wdr@mitre-bedford           (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 23:23:02 PDT (Wednesday)
From: Newman.ES@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Dr. Strangelove and "The Doomsday Machine"

"Dr. Strangelove" combined human error, insanity, and "The Doomsday
Machine". This "machine" was indeed an unrealistic gimmick...
(Lauren Weinstein, in SFL V7 #43)

     Actually, the "Doomsday Machine" portrayed in this movie was a
quite serious proposal made by Herman Kahn of the RAND Corporation in
the early 1960's.  The title character is a parody of Kahn, and the
movie satirizes, among many other things, the type of "thinking about
the unthinkable" made infamous by Kahn and other RANDites.

/Ron

------------------------------

Date: Thursday, 23-Jun-83 01:18:39 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: "The Doomsday Machine"

     Regardless of where the idea of "The Doomsday Machine"
originated, it remains a completely unrealistic concept.  There are
those of us who have been affiliated with Rand (one way or another)
for quite a number of years who always get a chuckle out of Dr.
Strangelove's line, "... I commissioned a study by the 'Bland'
Corporation ..."

     However, it should be noted that some "Dr. Strangelove" fans
consider the title character to be modeled after Dr. Teller (the
so-called "father" of the hydrogen bomb) and not after the RANDite
mentioned previously.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1983 10:40:32-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: few words on war games

     Having been involved with secure work myself, my feeling is that
IF you allow the basic implausibility of a programmer of Falken's
vintage putting in a back door (isn't the hacker stereotype
represented by Melvin a more recent development?) (note that this
could even finesse the absence of a password requirement, given some
of the military beliefs about compartmentalization) the rest is no
worse than the usual media misunderstanding of computers (boy, does
\\that// give a lot of leeway). But you make one big mistake: the
telephone that the kid hotwires is a pre-70's design, maybe even
pre-60's, so the remark about "it isn't 1966!" doesn't matter. I'd be
surprised if the phone company had replaced instruments that far out
in the boonies, although I haven't been that far away from major
cities in a decade or more.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1983 1246-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <uc.rgh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #43

     Lauren really lambasted WarGames.  I could handle it up until the
last few lines where he said he had been fuming about the movie ever
since a friend told him about it.  That was a pretty long flame for
not having seen it in person.  Admitted, as I told my
non-computer-scientist friends (I was in Florida at the time), that
most of it was just made up and that a standard university Multics was
more secure than the WOPR.  But lasers only leave trails in dusty
rooms and you can't hear explosions in space, and Movie commits N
other sins against science and we say, "Oh, yeah, well, it's okay."
Give the movie a break and at least go see it if you want to murder
it.  It was very entertaining, and the characters (human) were
likeable, too.  Sorry, I'll flame off now.

                                --Randy

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1983 09:44-EST
From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-VLSI.ARPA
Subject: pay phone usage

     When I was in high school in the early 1970's, I could call
Hawaii from California on a General Telephone pay phone with a paper
clip.  This was quite a reliable technique.  What the kid did in
"WarGames" was not far off from what I used to do.  I doubt if it
works any more, but I found the scene entirely plausible, and rather
amusing.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 9:16:21-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihldt!juracan @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Let's make a place for Robert Heinlein on the Space
Subject: Shuttle

     How about Isaac Asimov for the trilogy, instead of Lucas?  After
all he won a Hugo for "putting the Science in Science Fiction".

                        Teodoro Alonso
                        ihnss!ihldt!juracan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jun 83 11:59 EDT
From: Heiny.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Illuminati Style Conspiracy Book

The following review may slightlt offend fundamental Christians...















             Book Review: "The New Money System...(666)"

       by Mary Stewart Relfe, PhD; $4.95, no publisher apparent

     This is a book is for all you who read the "Illuminatus!" series,
and really think that the Justified Ancients of Mummu, the Legion of
Dynamic Discord and the A.:A.: are really out there.  Ms/Mrs/Dr Relfe,
a fundamentalist Christian, uses Biblical prophecy, half-baked logic
and pseudo-science to determine the `real truth' about today's world.

     Supposedly a work of non-fiction, this book 'details' the plans
of a 'world wide diabolical conspiracy' to establish a 'global satanic
totalitarian dictatorship' through such mechanisms as Universal
Product Codes, Point of Purchase Terminals, and an Israeli Lottery
game.  Some of the people implicated are Pierre Trudeau, the World
Future Society, St Francis Catholic Hospital, the Pope, and a
mysterious "Mr. 666".

     Important information on how to be financially prepared for the
Second Coming is also given, as well as details on how to spot the
agents of evil through their code sign: '666'.  The dangers of Library
Cards and of Laser Radiation in the supermarket are pointed out.

     Illuminati/conspiracy fans will probably find this book amusing.
It can be found in the religious racks of finer supermarkets (I
haven't seen it in a real bookstore around here).

                                Chris

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 23 Jun 83 2046-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #51
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 23 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 51

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (12 msgs)

















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 16:55-EST (Wed)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Psycho Jedi

     I did a double-take on my way in this morning as I passed the
malls on Rt. 9.  The large signs for the Hampshire Mall theatre was
proclaiming the following title for theatres 2, 3, and 4:

            2   Return
            3       of the
            4   Psycho  Jedi  II

     This can lead to some interesting speculation, but I really don't
think I'm ready to see the shower scene performed with a light-saber!

                                  SJZ (Steve Zeil)

        - submitted by Steven Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1983  04:12 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #46

     Re: The flight of the EWOK...

     Well, its the height of the swing that's dependent on the amount
of kinetic energy he had when he grabbed the rope.  The calculation of
the maximum height of the EWOK is dependent on the length of the rope,
the EWOK's weight, the speed at which he was going, and the force of
gravity specific to Endor, none of which we know.

     Re: Jedi death...

     It seems to me that a Jedi, after he dies(honorably), ascends to
a higher plane of existence.  The would seem practical (allowing dead
[experienced] Jedi) to help others...  (Remember: "If you strike me
down I will become more powerful than you can imagine.")  And, the
fact that these Jedi appear to only one person(or anyone they choose
for that matter) is not unlike the classical ideas of higher levels of
being: like Ghosts, Poltergeists, Christ, or dead people in general.

     Re: Death Star Construction...

     I don't think there would be any need to have a super-structure
around the death star, as the whole thing was(would conceivably be)
build from the inside out; and why not, that would be the easiest
method (remember you don't have to have "other" structures holding
things together(strengthening) in space).  The nonsensical
superstructure around the Enterprise was too far away from the surface
of the ship to be useful anyways, and would only be needed to hold the
ship in place, but that's even unnecessary.  I think the scaffolding
[spelling] around the Enterprise was just to indicate that there used
to be construction going on around the now finished-looking model.

     Re: Why steal a Imperial shuttle...

     You don't just sneak past an Imperial Battle Cruiser!!!!
Considering the fact that the Emperor himself was on the Death Star,
I'll bet they had full surveillance of every star system in the
group... Have you ever tried sneaking into the Pentagon???

Dave Goodine

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 83 20:03:50-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!norskog @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: More Yoda Answers (contains spoilers - (nf)

     Yoda didn't look like that at first.  The good side of the Farce
made him look like that, the same way the bad side of the Farce made
the Emp look funny.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 9:55:40-PDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxf!5941ux!dje @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ Nitpicking

     What kind of name is "Anakin" Skywalker?

     The prefix "ana-" means backwards or reversed, as in the word
"anachronism."  Anakin means a close relative (kin) turned to the Dark
Side, i.e. the reverse of his true nature.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 08:08 EDT (Thursday)
From: calarese.Henr@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Help me solve a feud!

     Can anyone help me?  Since my question refers to "Star Wars",
"The Empire Strikes Back", and "The Return of a Jedi" maybe someone
can answer this for me.

     A person in my office and I are having a disagreement.  He said
that Alec Guiness is dead.  He supposedly died after the first movie
was made.  If so, can anyone supply me with proof?

     If he is dead how did they include him in the 2nd and 3rd movies?

     Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Linda

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 12:04:43-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!security!wdr @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Adoption

     The reason OB1 thought Luke was the last hope was HE THOUGHT
SKYWALKER 3 DIED ON ALDERAN!!!  He obviously knew he'd left her on
Alderan and DIDN"T KNOW she was the Princess Leia (or didn't know that
she was on the Battle Station and was rescued... less likely).  Yoda,
being more sensitive to the force, could feel a 3rd skywalker.
Apparently Yoda clued Ben in during their conversation at the end of
TESB.

     NOTE: THE YODA-0B1 Ghost conversation in TESB kills the theory
that the ghosts are all in Luke's mind.  Yoda talked with 0B1 after
Luke took off...

Bill Ricker
(617)271-3725 MS k203, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA, 01730
wdr@security.UUCP                           (Internet)
{allegra,genrad,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!security!wdr
(UUCP)
wdr@mitre-bedford                           (ARPA)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1983 10:55:51-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: re Jedi is garbage

     Your other hope is SPEILBERG?!?!? The man has no story sense
\\and// none of the feeling for when an effect will work that Lucas
has (can you name any scene in any of Speilberg's work that carries
the immediate impact of the opening shot in SW IV? (Don't talk to me
about "Closet Cases of the Nerd Kind"; the mother ship is just an
oversized and unbelievable Xmas tree ornament which we never see in a
way that gives it scale.)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1983  11:02 EDT (Thu)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: RotJ

     I may be way out on a limb with this one, but . . .

     Has anyone noticed a similarity in philosophy between Jedis which
follow the "light" side and the oriental Shau-Lin (sp?) priests as
popularized in the TV show "Kung Fu"?  I don't know much about this
eastern sect, but taking the TV show as a source (risky business at
best!), it seems that there is much in common.  Teachings like "never
succumb to anger", "no unneccessary use of one's power", and other
pacifistic type things.  In the TV series, "grasshopper" is capable of
kicking anyone's ass, but only does so when really forced into it
either in order to defend himself or else some other good guy from the
bad guys.  (of course, this happens every episode.  Certainly one way
to get us to like the protagonists and still get lots of action into
the script is to make the protagonist someone who abhors the use of
violence, but is forced to use it to combat others.  This technique
was used in both Kung Fu and SWs (and countless others) A refreshing
counter-example (taken from real life) was in Ghandi which I happened
to see recently).

     Without getting to ridiculous with this, perhaps Vader, the
Emperor and other dark siders could be likened to the usual martial
arts types defeated by Chuck Norris in "Kung Foo Mama and the Emporer
of Doom".

     Back to more serious matters, the real point here is that there
seems to be a commonality between the teachings of Yoda and some
eastern philosophy.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 1983 14:38:40-EDT
From: Scott.Safier at CMU-CS-CAD
Subject: Why the emperor can't sense yoda

     The reason that the emperor can't sense Yoda is that the
influence that Yoda has on the force has always been there.  Yoda is
900 years old.  We do not know how old the emperor is, but RotJ Book
tells us he was a senator who used political tricks to be named
emperor at the downfall of the republic.  From other books we know
that the empire is not that old (probably about 10 - 15 years old).
The emperor (according to the book) was beginning to get old at the
fall of the republic. If you beleive that the race of the emperor had
a "normal, human" lifespan (since the emperor is humanoid), Yoda must
have been alive at the time of the emperors birth.  This would mean
that any disturbance in the force caused by Yoda would have always
been felt by the emperor, and he could easily have grown accustomed to
it, or never thought about it.  After all, the influence was always
there.

     Question: Who did train the emperor?  The book clearly says that
those blue lightning bolts are manifestations of the force, so who
trained him.  I seem to recall something from the ANH book about the
emperor being a Jedi.  Does anyone else remember this?

     Finally, the reason that only Luke can see "the holy trinity"
(the father, the muppet, and the holy ghost) is that they have become
part of Luke's force.  When Yoda and Ben explain what the force is,
they mention that every living thing contributes to it.  This means
that everything has its own force.  Since Luke was influenced so
greatly by these 3, their ideals and the good in them have come to "be
absorbed" into Lukes force.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 1983 1014-PDT
Subject: Blue Elephant for Vice Emperor
From: FEATHER@USC-ISIF (Martin S. Feather)

     BLUE Flame on:

     Bah! More insults hurled at BLUE creatures!
...Jabba's den. That blue smurfy thing really bothered me...

     Doesn't it BOTHER you that so FEW of the creatures in the Star
Wars universe are BLUE?  Just consider, ALL the BLUE coloured
creatures are *GOOD* creatures.

     May you fall into the BLUE Side (apologies to Shane).

Martin.

(No, I'm not BLUE either.)  BLUE Flame off.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83  19:03 EDT (Thu)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: RotJ: Force (non spoiler)

     Seems we have hit upon something that maybe we shouldn't let
slide by...

     Vader knows that Kenobi is aboard the Death Star.  He did NOT
sense him until he gets right in front of the Falcon in the landing
bay.

     Luke is in the shuttle and KNOWS that Vader is on the command
ship.  Vader takes notice of this particular shuttle - he knows Luke
is there.

     Is this ability to detect more intense because they are
FATHER/SON, or because they are LOOKING for the signs that the other
is near?

{M}

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83  19:22 EDT (Thu)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: Name derivations

     Well, Luke Skywalker, or LUKE S. is obviously LUCAS.

     I would agree that YODA is an attempt at something asiatic and
mystical.

     Anakin? Well, we can cut that apart and come up with AN-A-KIN -
perhaps a pun?  AN, the prefix meaning NOT, "A KIN" - meaning ANAKIN,
"not a relation"?  Where all they time he is really Lukes AND Leia's
FATHER?

{Mijjil}

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 27 Jun 83 1839-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #52
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest         Monday, 27 Jun 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 52

Today's Topics:
                       Film - WARGAMES (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24-Jun-83 10:28:21-EDT
From: sorceror@LL.ARPA
Subject: Comments on WARGAMES

     Lauren's flaming over WARGAMES very accurately echoes my own
reactions.  Thank you, Lauren.

***** FLAME ON *****

     I would add that this film is genuinely pernicious, because its
unrealistic portrayal of electronic automation facilitates a message
which encourages the uninformed public's fear and loathing of this
technology. The opening vignettes make it clear that WARGAMES intends
to deal with the topic of replacing human agents with a computer
controlled system. The plot developments, aided and abetted by the
film's distorted concepts of computer systems technology, imply that
such systems are disastrously unreliable. The issue of human
fallibility, which led to the implementation of the WOPR, is
conveniently ignored, after the first five minutes. The film attempts
to distract the viewer from this fallacy of selected evidence, by
raising the prospect of nuclear holocaust and evoking hysteria about
the anticipated consequences. It reinforces its judgment about "man
vs. machine" by blaming the computer and its affiliated personnel for
this state of agitation. This sort of emotional manipulation is a most
dishonest and improper technique of argument, which should be
recognized and deplored. Despite the strength of its purely dramatic
elements, I found this film objectionable, because of this sleazy
Luddite pandering.

***** FLAME OFF *****

          Enjoy,

          Karl Heinemann
          (SORCEROR at LL)

P.S. Just this morning, I heard a radio ad for WARGAMES, where a
person leaving the theater says "This is the most important movie of
the year". This reaction exemplifies my misgivings about the film,
that people will see it as a serious argument against implementation
of computer control technology, including AI. AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGH !!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 08:21 CDT (Friday)
From: HOWARD.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: The talking computer in War Games

     I recently saw War Games and enjoyed it despite the fact that
some of the movies's scenes were totally unrealistic.  However, there
was one inconsistiency that still bugs me.

     When the kid connected his computer to the WOPR (or whatever it
was named) we heard his computer speak because he had a speech
synthesizer hooked up on his end to speak aloud whatever appeared on
his terminal.  At the end, after the WOPR learns his final lesson, we
hear the same mechanical voice speaking.  But this time we're not at
the kid's house, we're at NORAD, whose computers have not had voice
capabilities until now.  Even if their computers had been able to
speak, I'm sure they would have installed enough sophisticated
equipment so that their voice would have sounded a whole lot more
lifelike than that of a little black box put together by a high school
computer freak.

Letsbeforrealfolks
Doug Howard

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 83 0:36:28 EDT
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Subject: Movies and the computer hacker

     I had low expectations of WAR GAMES.  I was expecting a movie
that it would be fun for our group of computer hackers to go to and
make snide comments all the way through (anyone remember "Meteor"?).
Pretty much what happened.  It's interesting, but the taste of the
computer hacker is kind of different for movies.  Most of us were
spellbound by TRON and had a lot of lines/situations that we found
incredibly funny that no one else in the theatre was laughing at.

     What's your favorite SF cult film?  "Dark Star" has some
interesting implications to those of us working with Smart Munitions.
My favorite has to be "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" however.

        Oh my god!  It's Adolf Hitler...
                -Ron

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 12:00-EST (Thu)
From: Steven Gutfreund <gutfreund.umass-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: L.A.U.R.E.N.'s comments on wargames

     Lauren's comments that all started with "everyone knows" reminds
me of something a fried told me (leichter@yale):

     Everyone knows that all computers with "human level" intelligence
will explode if given contridictory information or parables (Star
Trek, Superman III, etc.) Thus it is clearly inadequate hardware that
is keeping the AI people from constructing machines with real human
intelligence.  Only when we have exploding hardware will it be
possible to construct such machines.

                                - Steve Gutfreund

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 24-Jun-83 01:18:33 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: Wargames

Saying that "Wargames" presents "no worse" a view of computers than
most other television programs/films is no excuse.  As you implied
(and as we all know) the typical view is terribly inaccurate, to put
it very, very mildly.  It's even worse with Wargames, since this
particular film pretends it is "almost accurate".  The generic mass
media review I've seen of the film runs like:

Wargames: An exciting, action-packed film that really knows its
           computers.

That is virtually an exact quote.  Dandy.

As for the payphones -- hey, I don't make statements unless I have
some reasonable basis for backing them up.  Before I made my "1966"
statement, I checked with someone who has been in the vicinity of "The
Mountain", who informed me that, yes, the paystations in the area are
of the modern type which could not be subjected to the sort of attack
shown in the film.  In point of fact, virtually all new (and many old)
payphone mouthpieces have been either glued (or "wrenched" using a
special tool) into position for years.  Obviously they had to show an
"old-style" payphone in the film, since they probably tried (and
failed) to get the mouthpiece off of any of the "real" payphones at
their location.

I repeat... Fantasy is one thing.  A film that pretends to be
something it's not is something else again.

--Lauren--

P.S.  The director of the film, at a local screening here in L.A., was
asked about the unscrewing of mouthpieces during a question and answer
period.  He replied that "... since the film's release, the phone
company has begun gluing on the mouthpieces."  This is simply untrue,
since such security measures have been taking place for years.
However, this is typical of the sort of lies the production staff is
making to protect their film's "integrity".

--LW--

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 24-Jun-83 20:18:27 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: Final thoughts on "Wargames"

Ahem.  A few final comments.  I sincerely hope that this will be my
last submission on this topic for the time being.  I'll be away from
the net for a few days anyway, so any flamers will have to wait until
I get back if they expect me to reply!

The Film
========

First of all, where did I say that I never saw the film?  What I said
was that I had been upset about the film since my friend brought home
the first details from a studio screening well before the film's
public release.  This was weeks before I had a chance to get out and
see the beastie myself.  Unfortunately, it turned out that my friend's
details were all accurate.  Nowhere did I state that I didn't see the
film itself.

The Phones
==========

My original comment on this subject was "this is 1983, not 1966".  It
is generally well known that ground start techniques of various sorts
worked (at one time) with many payphones.  However, the telcos were
aware of the problem and began the handset gluing and "wrenching"
operations when the problem became serious enough to be considered a
significant revenue loss.  During this same period, internal
mouthpiece "shields" and some other devices began to be used to avoid
these problems.  The film implies that the technique shown is still
generally usable (and the director implied that the telcos were
ignorant of the techniques until his film was released).  These are
both untrue concepts.  I suppose there still are some unprotected
payphones out in the REAL hinterland somewhere, but the bottom line
remains the same: the film is highly misleading.  I might add that
such techniques, alone, even with a cooperating payphone, would be
useful for local calls only (a lot of good that'll do out in the
middle of nowhere!)  Further discussion on this topic should probably
be directed off of SF-LOVERS and on to TELECOM (which has recently
returned to life, by the way...)

The Reality
===========

Few persons who have ever been involved in computer security design
(including myself, of course) would claim that any given system is
100% secure from attack.  Even many military systems are vulnerable to
attack FROM THE INSIDE, as some studies have shown.  (By "from the
inside", I mean an attack by personnel who have direct access to the
system, or who are involved in the design and setup of such systems.)
This does not change the fact that a scenario such as that presented
by "Wargames" is NOT realistic, even disregarding the typical
"twisting" of computer technology that the film presents -- we've
gotten used to that over the years, of course.  The real problem is
that the average person who is not a technically informed person in
the computer field cannot be assumed to be capable of understanding
the distinctions between what might seem "plausible" and what is
"real".  The sorts of superficial stories published by newspapers and
spouted by the network news on these topics only add to the confusion,
since they attempt to present a highly complex topic in a manner
understandable by the layman in a one column article (or a two minute
television segment), and are uniformly abysmal in their results.

False alerts, test penetrations of military computer systems by
coordinated military teams, and similar events are a reality, and,
quite possibly, the "public" should be made more aware of the problems
involved.  However, films like "Wargames", which attempt to combine
"plausible" (but not realistic) situations with such "bankable" and
"up-to-date" concepts as home computers, dialup lines, "whiz kids",
and video games, do a terrible dis-service to all of us who are
attempting to advance the field of computer science.  For what the
average viewer of "Wargames" walks away with is one simple concept,
"Computers are Bad."  We've been fighting this sort of attitude for
years, and it isn't clear that the spread of this technology has
really improved "the public's" view or level of information on the
matter.  (I note, for example, that the press tends to equate children
who spend lots of time PLAYING video games with future computer
scientists.  Have you been inside a video arcade lately?  Blechhhh!)

Enough.  I still get cold shivers when I watch "Failsafe", since I
know that the scenario presented was/is damned close to a possible
reality.  "Failsafe" presented its anti-arms-race message in an
effective and reasonable manner, and was intelligent and dramatic.
Unfortunately, today's film market is oriented toward our current
"bubblegum" culture, and toward children (and adults) with bubblegum
for brains.  Truly a shame, but typical.

The End
=======

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 1747-EDT
From: VLSI at DEC-MARLBORO
Subject: wargames flames   *** spoiler ***

     OK, so maybe the makers of "WarGames" didn't know much about
computers.  They didn't realize that computers are not covered with
flashing lights, they do not hum (they whoosh), and they don't echo
your passwords.  But you don't have to know much about computers to
realize that the movie's ending is nonsensical.  The claim appears to
be that after the computer was shown that tic-tac-toe was unwinnable,
it realized that nuclear war was unwinnable too.  This thing is an
ace-pro game player, and has been programmed by a non-fool, and
somehow it has never come across the idea that games have ties.  It
had been running nuclear war simulations for years and years, and
never noticed that no one ever seemed to win the war.  And this is a
machine that was deliberately built to learn from its mistakes.  Sure,
the movie is politically correct, but I'm not sure I want bozos like
this on my side.

P.S. The first time I tried to see this movie it was sold out.
"Rechurn of the Jedi" was doing very poor business next door.  I think
the word is out that it's not nearly up to the level of its
predecessors.

John Redford
DEC-Hudson

------------------------------

Date: 26 June 1983 00:25 EDT
From: Steven A. Swernofsky <SASW @ MIT-MC>
Subject: Dr. Strangelove and "The Doomsday Machine"

          From: Newman.ES at PARC-MAXC.ARPA
     Actually, the "Doomsday Machine" portrayed in this movie was a
quite serious proposal made by Herman Kahn of the RAND Corporation in
the early 1960's.  The title character is a parody of Kahn, and the
movie satirizes, among many other things, the type of "thinking about
the unthinkable" made infamous by Kahn and other RANDites.

     I was told instead that the title character was a parody of
Kubrick's government professor at Harvard.  Guess who that is?  (Hint
-- he later became a key adviser to a Republican President.)

-- Steve

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Jun 83 1936-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #53
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 30 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:
                   THE RETURN OF THE JEDI (18 msgs)


















----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83  19:29 EDT (Thu)
From: Mijjil (Matthew J Lecin) <LECIN@RU-GREEN>
Subject: More Yoda Questions

Date: 20 Jun 83 10:21:12-PDT (Mon)
From: hplabs!hpda!fortune!grw at Ucb-Vax
To:   SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
Re:   More Yoda Questions

     I figure "Return of the Jedi" does not refer to a single Jedi
knight, but more like, "return of the Jedi race" or "return of the
Jedi order" -- return of Jedi types in general to prominence in local
politics.

                               -Glenn

     Wrong!  The "Return of the Jedi" does refer to the Jedi who is
talked about more in this trilogy than any other!  ANAKIN SKYWALKER!

     As Anakin is dying - from damage to his life support setup, Luke
says, "I have to save you" - meaning get him out of the Death Star
(II) before it blows up.  Anakin replies "You already have.  Tell you
sister, you were right."

{M}

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1983  20:16 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #49

Re: Background behind the Emperor

     It would seem that since the Death Start was stationary,
obviously having the same background was realistic.  The only movement
would be spinning of Endor, which, since it seemed to be scaled to
about the same size as the earth, would only change the star view as
we see in our sky at night.  Perhaps for nit picking sake, they could
have moved the matte about 5 degrees to a side, which I doubt would be
considered worth the effort.

Dave Goodine

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 8:37:38-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ Nitpicking

     Controversy time: The question is, why name a character something
dumb like Anakin? (well, I'm paraphrasing) We all know about:

                          Luke   === Lucas
                          Obiwan === OB-1

     Wellllllllll, how about:

                  Anakin  ===  Ana-Kin  === "No kin"

     (Get it?  He was a clone just like OB-1 and the emperor.
Obviously the Jedi got in above their heads and tried cloning to breed
a better knight.  What they got were the Skywalker clan and a
super-powerful Jedi who fell to the dark side and became the Emperor.)

            --- Stephen Perelgut ---

{decvax,linus}!utzoo!utcsrgv!perelgut
{cornell,watmath,hcr,floyd,allegra,uw-beaver,
ubc-vision,ihnp4}!utcsrgv!perelgut

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1983  02:27 EDT
From: Dave Goodine <MERMAN%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #51

Re: Trash about Spielberg!?!?!?!??!?

     Yeah, neato, Lucas found a great opening scene... I felt like
leaving the theatre when he used the same GIMMICK(yes, gimmick) in
RotJ.  Speilberg has made two movies(Raiders and ET) that I think most
would agree are GREAT!  Along with a few others (Poltergeist and Jaws)
that were very popular.  (Jaws, ET, and Raiders are among the top 10
most popular films of all time.)  I think we can look to him for some
more entertainment in the future which won't be so dedicated to one
story or one facet of the Adventure/Science Fiction genre.

Re: Sensing...

     I honestly think that all this speculation about sensing a Jedi
has been unnecessarily due to the fact that those envolved in the
conversation forget that a the movie has a plot first and then a "fill
in" background.  In TESB, Yoda clearly states that size, distance, or
any physical proportionalization has no relevancy to the use of the
force.  Therefore any Jedi could sense any other at any distance.  I
imagine that a possible explanation is that a Jedi has a "power" to
sense another, not an inherent trait.  Just like we can see other
people but not with our eyes closed as opposed to hearing (most humans
can't shut it off). I think that one character sensed another only
because it was convenient to the plot.  Let's remember that its a
movie, and if you want to establish physical rules about the Jedi
universe then don't look to Lucas' movies, because they are filled
with contradictions.

Dave Goodine

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 14:50:23-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!ray @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Adoption (somewhat minor spoiler)

     Ah so! I was already informed that Luke did indeed ask Ben about
the "other".  The problem was that when I was RotJ I didn't hear Yoda
mention the other Skywalker because of the 10**69 children babbling at
the 169 dB level.

                Now firmly humbled
                Ray Allen
                utcsrgv!ray
                (416) 978-5036

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 00:11:46 PST (Fri)
From: Stephen Willson <willson.uci@Rand-Relay>
Subject: Re: re Jedi is garbage

     SW IV is the greatest movie ever made.  I merely think that the
man has lost his magic touch.  Perhaps after his "two year vacation".
Everyone burns out.  Thanks for your comment though.  We subscribe to
sf-lovers but we haven't been getting it.  Has it been coming out
regularly since the change over?  Thanks,

                -- Steve Willson
                U.C. Irvine

------------------------------

Date: 16 Jun 83 13:29:45-PDT (Thu)
From: ihnp4!houxm!houxz!wbux5!lat @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Leia's Father

     In the movie, it is revealed that Luke has a TWIN sister.  Darth
knew he had a kid, but had no idea that there were twins.  Thus his
ignorance of Leia being his daughter.  (please correct me if I am
wrong).

                        Laurie
                        [mhuxt, harpo, houxz]!wbux5!lat

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 0310-PDT
From: Lynn Gold <FIGMO@USC-ECLC>
Subject: Pepperidge Farm cookies

Address: Kestrel Institute, 1801 Page Mill Road, Palo Alto, CA
Phone: (415) 494-2233

     Has anyone seen the RotJ cookies put out by Pepperidge Farm?

     I've seen them in the Alpha-Beta stores out here.

     There's one thing about them that struck me as interesting: the
"good guys" ("The Rebel Alliance") were vanilla and peanut-butter
cookies, while the "bad guys" ("The Empire") were chocolate cookies.

     Is it me, or is this a subtle form of racism?

Amused,
Lynn

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 22:38:37-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ Nitpicking

     Yes there was a ~15 second sequence where the special effects
were REALLY wobbly. (Jabba's sand yacht heading to the pit). You can
see break-up of the scenery around the edges of the yacht.

     Speaking of special effects, when I went the reserved tickets
bought by a friend were front row centre (I think he may be a bit
myopic) and I spent most of the emporer's chamber scene marvelling at
the amount of stuff that was digitized (thas right *T*V*) You can see
the dots on ALL the scenery/set...a lot of work went into that
film!... by looking at the dots in the credits and making some VERY
rough estimates, I figure the screen is about 3000-4000 dots
wide...any comments or corroboration (sp?)  (note no dots on the
people, which presumably means a combination of digital and analog
techniques)

        ../Dave  (..!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!mason)

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 17:16:28-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!genrad!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!utcsstat!laura @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: RotJ Nitpicking

     I thought Anakin -- manakin -- mankind.

     I thought that it was a crock, but then i am one of those who was
thoroughly disappointed with RotJ.

Laura Creighton
utzoo!utcsstat!laura

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 17:50:34-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!mh3bs!mhtsa!sms @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: spoiled review, Return of the Jaded

     As a decedent S_F watcher, the latest SW movie was a
disappointing fard.

     The only new features were some aliens (mostly disappointing) and
the sky cycles.  The Orkish creatures guarding Jabba's house were
cartoon imitations.  Jabba itself was a combination of one of the
early muppets from the first year of "Friday Night Live", and Sidney
Greenstreet.  ( The setting of jabba's room was reminiscent of the fat
man's bar from Casablanca. ) All the space scenes are now dull, after
6 years of space-special-effects-exploitation movies.

     It has been mentioned that the introduction of characters was
confusing, if you did not see the previous films.  But even so, I got
the feeling that someone was acting with a green fozzy-bear muppet in
one of the scenes.

     NO; this film did not add anything to the genre of SF movies, but
just gave children, producers, and trivial space opera boffos
something

                to enjoy,
                   sms

[ what are the odds that the emperor has a fake hand? ]

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 12:58:25-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rochester!heliotis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Luke's appearances in future SW movies

     I think we should all assume that the time span between each
mini-trilogy is much greater than that between the three movies so
far.  Thus, since it is claimed that different (human) actors will be
used for the other movies, there ought to be at least a generation or
two between episodes 6 and 7 (and 3 and 4), or possibly a lifetime, if
your theory about Luke as a hologram is correct.

                        Jim Heliotis

P.S. I sure hope Lucas makes more; I intended to celebrate my 50th
     birthday by attending an all-day Star Wars marathon!

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983  10:07 EDT (Fri)
From: Gregory Faust <FAUST%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC>
Subject: RotJ

     In the scene: "There goes our last hope." ; "No there is
another".

     I would like to put in my vote that the "other" in this scene is
Anakin, not Leia or some unborn.  After all it IS Anakin that turns
out to be the rebellions salvation (admitedly with some help from
Luke).

Greg

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 18:43:06-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!fred @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re{venge,turn} of the Jedi

     The June issue of ``Sail'' magazine has an interesting article
about Jabba's sail barge. Apparently a lot of effort went into the
design and construction of the rigging on the barge, which was to some
extent operable. The original design description of the barge is that
it is ``an antigravity vehicle with sails to assist in steering''.
Sort of mixed technology there.

     And now for something completely different: Since Tatooine has
two suns, a fact which the filmmakers like to show off, howcum we
never see any double shadows on Tatooine? We see shadows beneath the
sail barge and the smaller craft, but they're all single. These craft
were high enough off the ground that the shadow should have split into
two distinct shadows. Just think how much fun (i.e. headaches) the
special effex folks could have had with that one! Since Tatooine's two
suns are of a slightly different color, they could have even made the
two shadows of different colors.

                        Fred Blonder
                        seismo!umcp-cs!fred
                        fred.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 1215-EDT
From: Randy Haskins <uc.rgh at MIT-EECS at MIT-MC>
Subject: re Speilberg sux

What is this &*)(&)&%^)  ?

          Your other hope is SPEILBERG?!?!? The man has no
     story sense \\and// none of the feeling for when an
     effect will work that Lucas has (can you name any
     scene in any of Speilberg's work that carries the
     immediate impact of the opening shot in SW IV?

     Did you see Poltergeist?  That whole movie is an effect with
incredible impact!  Despite what the credits say, Speilberg had his
little hands deep in that movie.  An article I read said (this is also
from Poltergeist): "Speilberg: he knows what scares you."  As far as
I'm concerned, that movie is the scariest I've ever seen.  You don't
really have to believe in life after death for it to scare you.
Believing in unfathomable evil will suffice.  What about Close
Encounters?  That movie expressed as much awesome good as Poltergeist
did evil.  Anyway, everyone I've talked to agrees that Lucas blew
every available dramatic scene in Jedi.

        -still-love-ya-steven,-even-after-ET
        Randy

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 12:12:25-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: Re: re Jedi is garbage



     I don't think RotJ is all that great either; there are too many
things that gave me that "hey, wait a minute" feeling---badly done
effects (not poorly conceived, most of the time, but poorly done (out
of focus, bad scale, funny-looking perspective)), bad pacing, and a
final scene that looks more and more like bad amateur theatricals
every time I see it. But I don't think Spielberg can grow into the
shoes Lucas may have given up---if only because he takes himself too
seriously.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 13:15 CDT (Friday)
From: HOWARD.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Alec Guiness Dead?

     Alec Guiness is not dead.  In fact he's standing here next to me.
In fact just by looking at him I would say that he's in great shape
for his age.  Isn't that right Alec.  See I told you.

Doug

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 13:26 CDT (Friday)
From: HOWARD.DLOS@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: Re: Kung Fu Connection?

     Of course there is a connection between grasshopper's master and
Yoda.  If Kung Fu went around beating up everyone who gave him a dirty
look he would have been considered such a threat that he would have
been hounded by the US Calvery, the Canadian Mountees, and the
Pittsburgh Steelers until they caught him and made egg foo yung out of
him.  On the other hand, Yoda knows that if Luke lets his anger get
the best of him, or starts using the force unnecessarily, it will only
be a matter of time before he follows in his father's footsteps.

Doug

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



0,unseen,,
*** EOOH ***
Date: 30 Jun 83 2008-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #54
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest        Thursday, 30 Jun 1983      Volume 7 : Issue 54

Today's Topics:
          Authors - David Brin & C.J. Cherryh & Terry Carr &
           Stephen Donaldson (5 msgs) & Robert A. Heinlein,
   General Comments - Religious Issues & LOCUS & S.F. in Toronto &
                         S.F. Music (3 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 83 16:20:03 PDT (Sunday)
From: Poskanzer.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA
Subject: David Brin

     Aside from "Sundiver", I know of only three other stories by
Brin:

"Just a Hint", Analog 27Apr81.  Not particularly good.

"The Tides of Kithrup", Analog 25May81.  In the same fiction as
"Sundiver".  Excellent.

"The Postman", IASFM Nov82.  Similar to a certain episode from
"Lucifer's Hammer".  I think it won an award this year.

     If anybody knows of any others, I would appreciate hearing about
them, because I think David Brin is the best new author since Niven!

Jef

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 11:49:11-PDT (Wed)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!philabs!seismo!rlgvax!cvl!cas @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Aliens

     C. J. Cherry's "The Pride of Chanur" has some good aliens.  This
book is up for a Hugo Award this year (it is the best one I have read
so far - I will probably vote for it).  What makes this book so
interesting is of course the treatment of the different alien
spacefaring species and their interactions.  The main characters (a
cat-like species called the 'Hani') I found to be too human-like
(perhaps that's why they can get along with humans?) but most of the
other species were rather different.

        Cliff Shaffer
        ...{mcnc,we13,seismo}!rlgvax!cvl!cas

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 15:51:05-PDT (Thu)
From: menlo70!sytek!syteka!mugwump @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: aliens

     Some rather alien aliens are in a story by Terry Carr called 'The
Dance of The Changer and the Three.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 19:52:56-PDT (Thu)
From: harpo!eagle!alice!alb @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: White Gold (SPOILER)

     Sunder and Hollian can NOT return to the Land.  They should
probably not even be able to appear in Andelain now.  They were able
to 'survive' there (and Covenant was able to step in in Mount Thunder)
because the Law of Life was broken by Hile Troy.  Well, the Law has
now been RESTORED by Linden.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jun 83 10:05:11-PDT (Wed)
From: pur-ee!CSvax.Pucc-H.Physics.els @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: White Gold (SPOILER)

     I agree that at least one more book is needed.  However it need
not deal with Linden.  I'd like to see the aftermath of WGW, that is
to say, what Sunder and Hollian do with the new Staff.  With it they
are no longer bound to Andelain, and can return to Revelstone and the
first three of Kevin's ward's (if they choose to use them, or if after
all the Lawbreaking they still apply).  I'd like to see how they
complete the healing of the Land and I'd like to see the Giants'
return to Home.  Then the Giants could return to Coercri with a number
of their people to form a permanent settlement.  There could be some
strife and violence as the people of the Land try to learn how to live
without the Sunbane and maybe one of the remaining Ravers could muck
things up a bit.  What I truly want to see is the Giants repair
Revelstone.  Finally, there was never an explanation (unless I fell
asleep somewhere) of why TC didn't have the health-sense and why
Linden DID!  Any ideas?????

                           els[Eric Strobel]
                           pur-ee!pur-phy!els

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 14:51:03-PDT (Fri)
From: harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5e!jjm @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Thomas Covenant

     I loved the first three Covenant books.  I liked the fourth and
fifth much less, but I held out hoping that the sixth would make it
all worthwhile.

     Boy, was I dissappointed.

     I would still recommend the first three books to people, but in
the last three I just stopped caring about what happenned to Thomas
Covenant.  He was a pawn throughout the second series, and he just
gave in to the situation - I would have enjoyed reading about him
trying to cheat his fate, rather than plod along toward it.

        Jim McParland
        ABI - HO
        hou5e!jjm

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 14:17:39-EDT
From: csin!cjh@CCA-UNIX
Subject: the WARDEN

is the name the prisoners used for him; Manny specifically notes that
during one of the meetings while he was on Earth one of the local
notables specifically insisted on the use of Mort the Wart's official
title (some sort of meaningless bureaucratic noise).

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 1983 1326-EDT
From: Eirikur Hallgrimsson <EIRIKUR at DEC-MARLBORO>
Subject: Gene Wolfe

- - - - - - - Begin message from: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Date: 21 Jun 1983 1305-EDT
From: DD-B <DYER-BENNET at KL2137>
Subject: Gene Wolfe

     (ihnp4!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim @ Ucb-Vax) Since when
is Wolfe a new author?  I remember reading his Fifth Head of Cerberus
quite a while back -- probably mid seventies.  I don't think New Sun
is particularly better.

- - - - - - - End forwarded message

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 10:09:57-EDT (Thu)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Wolfe/Donaldson

     A friend of mine claimed that the Thomas Covenant books were the
most meaningful he had ever read and even loaned the first one to me.
I got about 2/3 through it when I decided I couldn't take it anymore.
I have read some badly-written sf before (and lots of badly written
other crap) but this book just took the cake for being the absolute
worst-written piece of science fiction I have ever read.  It hurt my
eyes !  I really *wanted* to like it, too - Donaldson had some good
ideas but they were so badly expressed that the charm the book might
have had was utterly lost.

      On the other hand, I picked up "The Shadow of the Torturer" from
seeing recommended in this very digest and was immediately hooked. It
is at the other extreme, a beautiful example of rich, well-textured
writing.  I ran around to every bookstore in town to collect the other
paperback editions out and then had to borrow Citadel in hardback just
to be able to finish.  I have never expected great shakes in style
from science fiction - I read for plots and ideas, but it was a real
joy to see something that was engaging and fantastical and also of
considerable literary value. Wolfe's command of the language is
impressive, and the fact that every word in all 4 books is in the OED
makes it even better.

j.c. patilla

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jun 83 21:48:43 EDT
From: Dir LCSR Comp Facility <HEDRICK@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Subject: a couple of religious issues

     In response to the review of the Illuminati-style conspiracy
book: I am curious why the reviewer thought fundamentalists would be
offended [but don't answer me on this list - probably no one else is].
It is one thing to disagree with a philosophy.  It is another to think
that those people who hold it can't detect absurdity or don't have
enough perspective to laugh at it when it appears.  You might find it
amusing to look at some issues of the Wittenburg Door, an evangelical
satirical journal.

------------------------------

Date: Friday, 24 Jun 1983 12:09-PDT
Subject: LOCUS recommended reading lists
From: gail at rand-unix

     Looking through my old files, I find something labelled "1980
LOCUS Recommended Reading List".  This came in three parts, of which I
have parts I and III.  Does anyone have the complete list on line
somewhere?  How about a similar list for other years?  This list seems
to be recommendations of books (and stories?) published during 1980,
so I assume it is generated each year.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 14:39:41-PDT (Thu)
From: decvax!wivax!linus!utzoo!utcsrgv!phyllis @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Science Fiction in Toronto

     Toronto has a great science fiction bookstore not too far away
from the Harbor Castle (the conference hotel):

                Bakka
                282 Queen St. West (near Spadina and Queen)
                596 8161

     Also of interest, and right down the street from Bakka is:

                The Silver Snail Comic Shop
                367 Queen St. West
                593 0889

                                Phyllis Eve Bregman
                                CSRG, University of Toronto

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 1983 10:46:08 EDT (Friday)
From: Eric Albert <ealbert@BBN-UNIX>
Subject: Science-fiction and music

     I'm not sure that "Rocket Man" by Elton John/Bernie Taupin is
particularly related to the story by Heinlein, though it might have
been inspired by it.  I do know that the song "Rocket Man" by Thom
Rapp and his group Pearls Before Swine (on the "Sunflowers"
album(???)) is taken EXACTLY from the story: very well done and quite
moving.  I recommend it to anyone who liked the story and can find the
album (usually in cut-out bins).

     Also, on the first album (???) by Ambrosia, there's a very pretty
cut that has a chorus taken directly from Vonnegut (Cat's Cradle, as I
recall), word for word.  Catchy tune, too...

-- Eric Albert@BBN-UNIX

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jun 83 0:57:28-EDT (Fri)
From: Geoffrey Wright <gdw.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: "Classical" SF Music

     There has been some discussion of SF music lately, but so far the
references I've seen pertain to Rock oriented music.  "Classical"
composers have long taken inspiration from space, the planets and
stars, the sun and moon, and beyond the solar system.

     "Classical" music was used to good effect in 2001, although most
of it was not composed with the film in mind.  CLOCKWORK ORANGE used
music realized on Moog Synthesizers by Walter (now Wendy) Carlos --
some of which was composed for the movie, the rest of which was an
"electronic orchestration" of well-known music.

     New techniques in electronically generated sound (both analog and
digital sound production) allow the composer to create almost any
sound imaginable, the limit being human perceptual abilities.  Many
computer music composers, however, have resisted the classification of
their music as "Science Fiction" music simply because of the medium (a
valid point).  However it is likely that the music produced on such
systems may challange the traditional concepts of musical thought,
leading to new types of music hinted at in various SF works.

     One of the earliest all-electronic movie soundtracks was composed
by Louis and Bebe Baron for Forbidden Planet (1956).  The electronic
sounds served the dual functions of sound effects and mood-setting
music.  The composers tried to relate the sound to the story in a
carefully integrated way: "...We design and construct circuits which
function electronically in a manner remarkably similar to the way that
lower life-forms function psychologically."  [The composers as quoted
in MIT 's Computer Music Journal, Vol. 7, No. 1]

     A partial list of "Classical" music inspired by Space or SF might
interest some: [taken from "Music: Facts and Feats", 2nd ed, Sterling
Publishing, 1981, R. and C. Dearling]

MOON--

Der Mond (opera, 1939) -- Orff
Silver Apples of the Moon (Electronic Composition, 1967) -- Subotnik
The Excursions of Mr. Brucek to the Moon (opera, 1920) -- Janacek
The World of the Moon (opera, 1750) -- Galuppi
The World of the Moon (opera, 1777) -- Haydn

SUN --

Sun Music in five parts (I-IV for orchestra, V for chorus
        and percussion) -- Sculthorpe

PLANETS --

Urania, for Orchestra (1965) -- Garcia
Symphony No. 3, Op. 40, 'Uranus' (l956) -- Penberthy

BEYOND THE SOLAR SYSTEM --

Symphony No. 2, 'Ad Astra' (1943) -- Isacsson
Aniara, space opera (1959) -- Blomdahl
Atlas Eclipticalis, for string trio, harp, piano, clarinet,
        and percussion (in which the patterns of heavenly
        constellations are transcribed into musical shapes) -- Cage
Symphony No. 2, Op. 19, 'Nebula in Andromeda' (1963) -- Pospisil
Sirius (The Dog Star, 8.7 Light Years from Earth), for tape, bass,
        soprano, bass clarinet, and trumpet, spacially arranged
        (1976) -- Stockhausen
The Space Dragon of Galatar, an opera workshop project for voices,
        sound effects and piano -- Paynter
Beyond the Universe, nine symphonic poems, Opp. 140-148 (1973)
        -- Penberthy

     There are many other works, but the above should serve to hint at
the wealth of music inspired by SF and related fields.

     I would welcome any other works you've heard or know about.

Geoffrey Wright
Peabody Conservatory Computer Music Studio
The Johns Hopkins University

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jun 83 10:09:57-EDT (Thu)
From: J.C. Patilla <jcp.jhu@UDel-Relay>
Subject: music

[HYSTERIA MODE]

NO MORE SF-MUSIC !!!!!!   Pleeeeeeeeease let's not do that again !!!!
Messages in Ewokese, if you want, but no more space music !

[end hysteria mode]

j.c. patilla

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************



1,,
Date:  1 Jul 83 0009-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #55
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS

*** EOOH ***
Date:  1 Jul 83 0009-EDT
From: Fred Kiesche (The Moderator) <SF-Lovers-Request@Rutgers>
Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS
Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest   V7 #55
To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS


SF-LOVERS Digest          Friday, 1 Jul 1983       Volume 7 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:
                      Film - War Games (8 msgs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 83 21:16:09 EDT  (Mon)
From: Speaker-To-Animals <speaker.umcp-cs@Udel-Relay>
Subject: Re: few words on war games

     One of the essential requirements of Military systems is that
they be fault-tolerant, if not fail-safe.  It's almost impossible to
guarentee a computer system fail-safe sooooo.....

     It's the human who has his finger on the trigger and NOT the
computer.  This is true of all weapons systems that I am familiar
with.

                                - Speaker

 ... and with an IMSAI no less... jeeze, gimmee a break!

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 83 03:21:09 EDT
From: Mike Inners  <INNERS@CMU-CS-C>
Subject: "Wargames" not Anti-Computer

     Did I see the same movie?  I'm not sure, since I seem to have
missed the anti-computer message.  In the print I saw, the humans
seemed to be the unreliable part of the system.  Not only did they
fail to launch their missles upon valid orders, they had not managed
to learn from running all of those nuclear exchange simulations.

     I saw the WOPR's behaviour in planning and (attempting) execution
of a full retaliatory strike to be representing the attitudes and
thick-headedness of the human planners that appear to control our
strategic forces at this time.  Unlike them, the computer actually
learns from an intensive series of simulations.

     Taking the movie's premises, 78% of the human operators would
have launched missles, even though no actual attack had occured.  This
does not seem to indicate that human control would have prevented a
spurious counterattack!

     I do agree that there were flaws.  The phone hack is out-of-date
(but once possible).  I do not share Lauren's confidence that military
communications are near-impenetrable.  A simple dial-in is
unrealistic, but I would bet that you could get in through the regular
phone lines if you really tried.  I do not find it unreasonable that a
infirmary lock (intended to keep randoms out, not hold prisoners)
would be far from high-security.  Also, note that the WOPR did not
control the missles directly.  It was forced to resort to
trial-and-error code breaking.

     The AI system was a weak point.  Real AI systems are not anywhere
near as far along as the WOPR.  If it was as advanced as shown, it
should have learned about tie games a long time ago.

     I expect directors to learn that computers do not explode when
confused, about the same time that they learn that sound does not
carry in space, and that bullet wounds are far messier than shown on
TV.  Not this century.

     All in all, though, I could find little trace of 'evil
computers'.  The computer seemed smarter than most of the people.
Required moderate suspension of disbelief (not helped by director),
but enjoyable.  Not a classic.

     'Failsafe' and 'Dr. Strangelove' have greater impact, in part
because ill effects are not avoided.

                                -- Mike Inners

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 28 Jun 1983 02:12-PDT
Subject: WarGames: A minority opinion
From: guyton at rand-unix

     Aw come on people, it's just a movie!  There were some flaws, but
not so many or so damaging as to destroy my enjoyment of the film.

     I'd been trying to hold back, but the last digest full of
anti-Wargames msgs was just too much to let go by ...

*** Flame On ***

     First forget the realism/non-realism stuff.  Much more
un-realistic films have been released and gotten rave reviews from the
folks on sf-lovers.  This is a science- fiction/fantasy/monster film,
realism isn't the issue here.

     Forget also for a moment the moronic producers who will say
anything they can think of to try and get more people to see the film,
and the know-less-than-nothing reviewers who think the film is an
accurate reflection of today's computer technology.

     The real issue is the negative message of the film.  I do not
agree with Lauren that the message is one of "Computers are Bad", but
think instead that it is one of "think twice before giving up control
to a computer."

      And ya know, I agree with that message!  I've been hacking with
computers for over 14 years, and I'd prefer everyone be a little
suspicious of computer systems.  Control once granted to a computer
system is not very likely to be returned, so you might as well be nice
and careful about how fast you give up control.  Anything else falls
under the category of blind faith in high tech.

     I believe that's where I differ most from the people who don't
like this little film.  I think the computer industry can and should
be submitted to this type of attack, for if it can't refute it then
something is very wrong.

      The nameless masses rising in arms against the monster computer
has me worried not at all.  But computer illiterates blindly promoting
the latest computer systems (in the hope of making themselves look
like heros) has me worried quite a bit.

*** Flame Off ***

Cheers,

-- Jim Guyton

p.s. It is now 2 AM, do you know what *your* computer is doing?

------------------------------

Date: Tuesday, 28-Jun-83 15:18:44 PDT
From: Lauren Weinstein <vortex!lauren@LBL-CSAM>
Subject: Comparisons...

In regards to Jim Guyton's note suggesting that the real message in
"Wargames" was "Don't give up control too easily to computers", I
would suggest that the film in question was a totally inappropriate
vehicle for that (meaningful) message.

Using "Wargames" to present a meaningful concept regarding computers
is like using "Plan 9 From Outer Space" to promote NASA funding.

--Lauren--

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 83 21:02:28-EDT (Sun)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!myers @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Re: Movies and the computer hacker

     Just saw Dark Star (which the original article mentions) last
nite; The ending, where the "smart bomb" is introduced to Kantian
epistemology is really hilarious, especially if you're an AI type.

     "Hello, Bomb????"

Still rolling,

Jeff myers@uwvax

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 83 10:24:36 EDT  (Tue)
From: Rene Steiner <rene.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: random stuff

1) Speaking of odd ways of portraying computers, has anyone seen
'Telefon'? It was pretty interesting, about 'leftovers' from
the cold war with Russia (people hypnotically convinced they were
American citizens, but they could be 'set off' with a few lines
of poetry to go blow up military targets) being triggered by an
escaped Stalinist (after a purge). Anyway, the CIA or somebody
is trying to figure out why all these no-longer useful military
targets are being blown up by Joe Average American, using nice
CRT's that chug along at about 110 baud and sound like teletypes.
Well, it was sort of cute when they suggested replacing the computer
with this one amazing woman who worked with them. She of course
said, 'Shhh... not in the computer room - they're very sensitive!'.

2) Blasters - how do they get those bolts of energy to go so slow?  I
mean, the light just CRAWLS along in a little lump ... thick air,
maybe?

3) About computers not echoing passwords ... HAH! No INTELLIGENT
computer does (excuse me, intelligently built), but here at the U. of
Maryland the computers the students use (IBM 370 and UNIVAC 1100/82)
do echo the password as you type it in. A few old terminals don't even
write over it. This is a real problem in a room with lots of people
around, close enough to look over your shoulder. Well, that's what you
get for using half-duplex machines. *sigh*

4) Do Captain Crunch wistles work on phones anymore?

                           just babbling,
                                - rene

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 83 18:48:57 EDT  (Tue)
From: Speaker-To-Animals <speaker.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay>
Subject: Re: Final thoughts on "Wargames"

     So instead of flaming to each other, why not flame at the mass
media and clue them in.

                                - Speaker

Where did the reviewers get their Phds in AI?  AMWAY?

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 83 21:32:17-PDT (Tue)
From: ihnp4!ihnss!knudsen @ Ucb-Vax
Subject: Realism (!) in WarGames

     Shortly before WarGames came out, everyone at Bell Labs got a
notice about cleaning up our computer security personal practices.
The first item mentioned was "Don't write down your password or access
codes in an obvious place" (like the school principal did in WG).
Second was "Don't use spouse's or kid's names for passwords; anyone
who knows you well can guess those" (like ... hey, no spoilers!).
Overall, I was impressed with the realism... like "It's deleted the
whole password file" (you know, as in /etc/passwd).  LIsten, compared
to the usual computer SF flick, this film is solid.  Most others were
written and directed by the same acid-head who built the WOPR set
(yes, I laughed out loud when I saw that...here, 2001 should have been
borrowed from, to get graphics scrrens instead of flashing lites).

     As for those university computer hackers, I got a Master's from
MIT and I recognized a few people in those two parodies.  I think
their dramatic purpose was to convince the girl that David wasn't
really such a NURD after all!  In summary, this movie seemed real
because it draws on lots of "war stories" and legends and culture of
the computing world itself, INSTEAD of feeding incestuously on the
cultures of SF (bad SF, I mean), TV, and pop culture.  And I didn't
find it anti-technology (I'm sensitive about that too, Lauren), but
rather "Let's be careful how we use it!"

        mike k

------------------------------

End of SF-LOVERS Digest
***********************

